Forced Movement in 3D

[Khime]

Had a bit of a situation come up in one of our sessions I thought I'd query the board about.

I (dwarf cleric) was being run through the encounter at the back of the DMG along with my fellow players, one of which was a human fighter. We had gotten to area 4; if you want to visualize the map without spoiling it for yourself, take a glance at the top part of the map on p217 of the DMG. I'll try to draw a map below:

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@+-----#-----+-----+-----+-----+@
@@@@@@|     #     |     |     |     |@
@@@@@@|  K  #  W  | Ftr |     |     |@
@@@@@@|     #     |     |     |     |@
@@@@@@+-----#############-----+-----+@
@@@@@@|     | ->  |  -> #     |     |@
@@@@@@| Dwf |S t a|i r s#     |     |@
@@@@@@|     | -> U|P -> #     |     |@
@@@@@@+-----+-----+-----#############@
      |     |     |     |     |     |
@ = Wall, # = Ledge indicating everything to the right is 10 feet off the ground from everything to the left.

The kobolds (K) had moved down the stairs, and the big boss (W) had moved to the north (left in the map) to be farthest away from anyone who managed to make their way up the stairs. I had one kobold pinned into the corner under the 10ft ledge (the square immediately left of the topmost "+10 ft"), and being a dwarf he could not manage to push me out of the way, and he had nowhere to shift (since getting past me diagonally would take him around a corner, and you can't move in that way per PHB p283). The other kobold had been diposed of by the fighter on his way up the stairs, and he rounded the corner to get a few licks in on the big boss. That set up the layout above.

Then the fighter decided he wanted to bull-rush the boss off the ledge.

Now per the Forced Movement rules on PHB p285-286, "Forced movement can’t move a target into a space it couldn’t enter by walking." But you can indeed walked into a space occupied by an ally; you just can't stop there. Plus, the boss wasn't technically being forced into the space containing the kobold; he was being forced out into the air 10 feet above the kobold. He did try to catch himself, but failed his save, so the DM ruled that he fell to the square containing the ally, and per Falling rules on PHB p284, he fell just far enough to take damage, so he landed prone.

Now, he is prone in an occupied space.

He can't stand up! Per PHB 292, you can only stand up in unoccupied spaces, and if you need to stand up in an occupied space, you have to shift to an unoccupied one first. But there were no open spaces around him that he could reach (the foot of the stairs were still around a corner, which still blocks diagonal movement).

He can't crawl away! Need a place to move to do that. See above.

So he's stuck prone in a square while his far less able Kobold ally is standing up and trying to fight. While prone the boss can still make attacks, but he's vulnerable to the melee attacks of the dwarf (that's me!), and the fighter up above him can keep him marked with his ranged attack (making it harder for the boss to fight back). The fight didn't last much longer.

===

Anyway, that's what happened. I'm trying to determine if we followed the forced movement rules correctly. Specifically,
1) Can Forced Movement move you into a square where you could not normally end your turn?
2) Is 10 feet above the ground considered the same square for such movement? I looked at some 3D movement rules in the DMG, but those focused on flying, and didn't seem to help

PHB p283 talks about where you can end movement, and it seems to say that you stop short of ending movement if you can't move into the square and the end of your move. But that would lead to the situation of someone on a ledge being unable to be pushed off if someone is below him, which makes no common sense.

 

[Tale]

I can't speak, right now anyway, to whether you followed the forced movement rules correctly. But I will say that you followed your interpretation of them too stringently.

You guys totally missed an instance for creativity. The BBEG gets pushed off a ledge over the Kobold and you had the Kobold end up on top of the BBEG. I would have had the BBEG land on the Kobold, have the Kobold take damage (maybe split the damage as a cushioning effect), knocking the Kobold prone as well, and then allowed the BBEG to stand up, functionally standing on his lesser.

In this instance, I'd say the actual rules be damned. There's an in-game justification for not allowing forced movement to go through a square it can't, if they're on the same level. There's not so much a thing for forced movement over a space they wouldn't normally be able to move through, then fall to that space.

 

[Khime]

You guys totally missed an instance for creativity. The BBEG gets pushed off a ledge over the Kobold and you had the Kobold end up on top of the BBEG. I would have had the BBEG land on the Kobold, have the Kobold take damage (maybe split the damage as a cushioning effect), knocking the Kobold prone as well, and then allowed the BBEG to stand up, functionally standing on his lesser.

In our defense, for the DM of this run it was his "first run in 4E to get to know the new rules", and so there was more focus on figuring out how to do it right "rules-wise" rather than doing it right "thematically". It actually took several rounds before we all realized you could still attack while prone, that's how green we were.

 

[IceFractal]

Sounds like the correct interpretation. Two things to note, though:
1) Being prone isn't that bad in 4E - you don't even get a penalty on attacks.
2) If the BBEG is the leader of the kobolds, he could order the kobold to fall prone, and would then be able to stand up.

 

[LokiDR]

I agree, your interpretation was correct. This does mean the enemy is stuck in a bad situation. Hey, you worked together and had some good tactics, why shouldn't you get an advantage?

Specifically, forced movement says you cant' force a person where they can't walk. The BBEG could have walked off the cliff. The fact that he is stuck there isn't a problem for the rules. That line exists so you don't try to push people THROUGH walls (unless you are the Hulk).

 

[Khime]

Sounds like the correct interpretation. Two things to note, though:
1) Being prone isn't that bad in 4E - you don't even get a penalty on attacks.
2) If the BBEG is the leader of the kobolds, he could order the kobold to fall prone, and would then be able to stand up.

You know, I just realized that by the RAW, if two models somehow end up prone in the same space and can't shift to an unoccipied space, neither can stand up.

I must be missing something obvious. It's perfectly legal for a standing character to end his movement in the square of a prone ally, and then drop prone himself (minor action), but he then can't stand up where he is because the space is occupied?

Common sense kicks in here, of course. I'd just say a prone ally does not 'occupy' a space for purposes of movement/standing restrictions.

 

[Syrsuro]

Sounds like the correct interpretation. Two things to note, though:
1) Being prone isn't that bad in 4E - you don't even get a penalty on attacks.
2) If the BBEG is the leader of the kobolds, he could order the kobold to fall prone, and would then be able to stand up.

Nitpicking:

Prone (page 277): You take a -2 penalty to attack rolls.

Carl