Forced Movement

[erleni]

I asked this question to Wizards Customers Support and got an answer by one of the devs (it's somewhere of Wizards Forum but I can't find it anymore).
Basically damaging zones are not hindering terrain so there is no saving throw and you can push/pull/slide enemies into them freely unless the zone power says otherwise (some "wall" powers require to spend more squares of movement to enter them and forced movement follows the same rules as normal movement in that case).
Obviously you can houserule a different set-up if you want, but allowing a save will seriously damage many controller classes, so take that into account.

 

[OnlineDM]

I asked this question to Wizards Customers Support and got an answer by one of the devs (it's somewhere of Wizards Forum but I can't find it anymore).
Basically damaging zones are not hindering terrain so there is no saving throw and you can push/pull/slide enemies into them freely unless the zone power says otherwise (some "wall" powers require to spend more squares of movement to enter them and forced movement follows the same rules as normal movement in that case).
Obviously you can houserule a different set-up if you want, but allowing a save will seriously damage many controller classes, so take that into account.

Yep, it's a house rule; one that I'm completely comfortable with. I personally see "Oh no, I'm being pushed into a campfire - I get a saving throw!" as being the same as "Oh no, I'm being pushed into a zone of magical fire!" If one gets a saving throw at my table, so does the other.

 

[DracoSuave]

So I'm an Artful dodger Rogue, new to D&D (and obviously 4e) and I've come across some issues with forced movement.

1. It says you can't move them into walls, i dont see why not? cant they just take some damage and go prone?

Because they cannot walk into walls. You can only force them to move where they can normally walk.

2. I can't find anything on moving them into friends/enemies? can i throw one through a friends square off a cliff? can I hurl him at my enemies and end up with two prone zombies?

They can walk into their allies squares, and thus you can force them to move through their allies' squares. They cannot walk into their enemy's squares, so you cannot force them to move into those squares.

Not all forced movement involves picking them up and hurling them. Some forced movement involves simply enchanting them so they go waltzing some place different. Movement which involves them being knocked prone will include such things in the power.

3. Can I throw them into barred or locked doors in order to force them open? Can I use them to set off traps? Can i move them in circles? Can i follow them?

You cannot walk into a barred or locked door to force it open, so you cannot force someone to move into there. You CAN walk into a trap, so you can force move someone into a trap. (If the trap is hindering terrain, they get a saving throw against enterring it, but other than that, they are fully vulnerable to the trap's effects if the trap is triggered by a creature entering it) You can move them in circles if you like. You can follow them, provided they don't get moved through squares it is illegal for you to enter.

4. How do you best like to use forced movement to your advantage

Tons of ways. Forced movement can be used to trigger traps, but its most common uses involve tactical positioning. You can shove an enemy out of melee range of a character so he can move without triggering an opportunity attack. You can push an enemy INTO the range of a character so that he can attack them without using his move action or charging. You can push enemies into a handy 3X3 square so that someone else can blast or burst them with their daily. You can move an enemy into a circle of your comrades so that it cannot escape without taking a buttload of OAs, while all your comrades get combat advantage from flanking. You can move an enemy out of a flanking position and to the front lines. You can push a goblin off a cliff.

There are MANY uses for forced movement, but they all involve tactical use, and vary from situation to situation.

While we're on the subject, what's the general take on forced movement into damaging zones/walls? They aren't hindering terrain by definition, so RAW they don't get to save...but I find that a bit cheesy since most creatures can see the 3x3 spinning vortex of flame or whatever and thus give them the standard "save and fall prone adjacent" effect.

Prone is still a terrible condition to inflict on any non teleporting creature so I think it's pretty balanced, what say ye?

They can't avoid traps or hazards either, no matter how they see it. If you have a swinging pendulum that does massive damage every round to creatures in its area, it doesn't matter, it's not terrain and so you don't get a save. It's not only a matter of seeing it, it's also a matter of having the ability to do something about it, and terrain is something you can do something about.

 

[Colmarr]

It's not only a matter of seeing it, it's also a matter of having the ability to do something about it, and terrain is something you can do something about.

I appreciate the distinction you're drawing between terrain and non-terrain here, and consider it a neat rule of thumb for drawing 'the line in the sand'.

However, having said that, isn't the stereotypical cliff an example of something that falls within 'terrain' but about which a creature can realistically do nothing?

If a PC pushes a monster across a piece of flat ground and over a cliff, how is that different to pushing a monster across a piece of flat ground and into a wall of fire?

 

[Nullzone]

They can't avoid traps or hazards either, no matter how they see it. If you have a swinging pendulum that does massive damage every round to creatures in its area, it doesn't matter, it's not terrain and so you don't get a save. It's not only a matter of seeing it, it's also a matter of having the ability to do something about it, and terrain is something you can do something about.

Well, there's the other side of the rub -- I don't give saves when they get moved into a trap square, or any other mechanism that doesn't automatically cause damage without some other event occurring first. If the trap has to attack first, then they've already got a chance at avoiding the damage, so there's no need for the save. Heck, in some cases I've used traps that are almost guaranteed to involve the monsters triggering them -- the monster just has a defense bonus against it since he knows it's there.

So in the case of your pendulum, they wouldn't get the saving throw. Yeah, it could potentially hurt if the pendulum's turn is between the controller and the monster's, but that's interesting tactics and theatrics right there; simply throwing a monster across the room into a wall of fire (as @OnlineDM distinguished, why is a wall of fire and a campfire different?) and expecting them to eat it without any sort of attempt to stop short is silly to me.

 

[Grim Hawk]

but they had a chance to stop, in the defense of the power used to force move them, now theyr mid move or fall or flight and have no chance to stop

 

[OnlineDM]

but they had a chance to stop, in the defense of the power used to force move them, now theyr mid move or fall or flight and have no chance to stop

Given that you're new to DnD, you might not know that there's a rule that states that a creature who's being forced into hindering terrain (a pit, off a cliff, into a fire, etc.) is allowed a saving throw. If they make the saving throw, they fall prone just before they would go into the hindering terrain. If they fail the saving throw, in they go!

 

[DracoSuave]

Given that you're new to DnD, you might not know that there's a rule that states that a creature who's being forced into hindering terrain (a pit, off a cliff, into a fire, etc.) is allowed a saving throw. If they make the saving throw, they fall prone just before they would go into the hindering terrain. If they fail the saving throw, in they go!

Hindering terrain also any terrain that punishes movement, not just damaging terrain or precipitous terrain. Spell effects that do not create terrain are not subject to this rule... however...

A zone that is difficult terrain AND damages creatures inside it could be considered hindering terrain if the DM allows it, as it is a terrain effect that damages or punishes movement.

At the end of the day tho, the characters most likely to use hazardous zone powers and forced movement are players anyways. I say let them have their fun with their powers. It's a combo allowed in the rules, and it shows teamwork when executed properly.

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

A zone that is difficult terrain AND damages creatures inside it could be considered hindering terrain if the DM allows it, as it is a terrain effect that damages or punishes movement.

Just an observation, many zones don't cause damage until a BOT or EOT, while many of those that do cause damage upon entry have a "but not from forced movement" exception to them...

 

[DracoSuave]

Just an observation, many zones don't cause damage until a BOT or EOT, while many of those that do cause damage upon entry have a "but not from forced movement" exception to them...

Regardless, unless these zones involve terrain, they're irrelevant to rules that involve terrain. However, a BOT or EOT area, if it's terrain, punishes movement or causes damage, ergo, would be hindering.