Forge Seeker PrC -- comments sought ...

[Jeff Wilder]

I created this class as a route for my 9th-level dwarven cleric to take. I'd appreciate comments as to flavor and balance. The table isn't formatted, but it should be understandable enough.

The fluff text isn't in here ... you know, the stuff about it being intended for cleric, paladins, and fighter/clerics. The basic idea is that forge seekers are somewhat akin to favored souls, in that they're simply chosen by Moradin to be his emissaries in the world. They're diplomats, but mostly they gain goodwill for dwarves by "doing" -- forge blessing and general adventuring -- rather than by talking, the idea being that if you make a man's work go well for him, it's easy to count on him as a friend.

I'm torn on whether the abilities are too weak or too strong, which I suppose is a pretty good indication they're just right. Despite the fact that the runecaster -- and several other clerical PrCs -- don't cost any spellcasting, I just couldn't go to that length of cheesiness ... there has to be some reason to stay a plain ol' cleric, and turning undead isn't enough. (Obviously, that's especially true for Korbec.) I wouldn't argue too much if you wanted to restore the 7th level of casting, but I can live without it.

As it stands now, Korbec needs another 4 ranks of Diplomacy to qualify, which'll be 10th level, so he'd enter the class at 11th (and immediately miss out on 6th-level spells, ouch).

Forge Seeker

Hit Die: d8.

Requirements:

Alignment: Lawful Good, Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral.

Deity: Moradin.

Skills: Diplomacy 8 ranks.

Craft (skill involving use of a forge) 8 ranks.

Feats: Proficient with warhammer.

Spells: Able to cast divine spells.

Special: Must have traveled at least 100 leagues and worked, during that travel, before at least 10 different forges.

Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (architecture and engineering), Knowledge (religion), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Survival.

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Class Features:

Table: The Forge Seeker

Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Spellcasting

1
+0
+2
+0
+2
Find forge; Battle hammer (damage)
-

2
+1
+3
+0
+3

+1 divine

3
+2
+3
+1
+3
Fire resistance 5
+1 divine

4
+3
+4
+1
+4
Forge blessing
+1 divine

5
+3
+4
+1
+4

+1 divine

6
+4
+5
+2
+5
Fire resistance 10
+1 divine

7
+5
+5
+2
+5
Battle hammer (attacks); Refine soul
-

8
+6
+6
+2
+6

+1 divine

9
+6
+6
+3
+6
Fire immunity
+1 divine

10
+7
+7
+3
+7
Forged anew
+1 divine




Spells Per Day: At appropriate levels, add spellcasting to any existing divine spellcasting class. This does not improve anything other than spells per day and caster level, such as Turning Undead.

Find forge (Su): With concentration, a forge seeker always knows the direction – and only the direction -- of the nearest forge at which he will be able to work his craft. There is no range limit, but the ability doesn’t function across planes.

Battle hammer (Ex): At 1st level, a forge seeker’s skill with a hammer is such that it transcends the arena of the forge. With any hammer or warhammer, the forge seeker may add his Wisdom bonus (minimum 1) as an insight bonus to weapon damage rolls.

At 7th level, the forge seeker may add half his Wisdom bonus (round down, minimum 1) as an insight bonus to attack rolls with any hammer or warhammer.

Fire resistance (Ex): Long hours at the forge have toughened the forgeseeker to the point where he barely notices heat. At 3rd level he has fire resistance 5; this increases to fire resistance 10 at 6th level.

Forge blessing (Su): If a forge seeker actively works at a forge for 10 days in a row, at least eight hours per day, he calls the attention of Moradin, who blesses the forge. For the next 20 days, any LG, LN, or NG worker at that forge may choose either to gain a +10 sacred bonus to an appropriate Craft skill, or to gain a discount of 10 percent on gold piece cost and XP costs when using an appropriate item creation feat. (In general, this includes Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Forge Ring, although there may be exceptions; e.g., horseshoes of speed, as a wondrous item).

Any evil being working at a blessed forge gains one negative level. This negative level can never become permanent, but nor can it be removed by spells such as restoration.

Any being working at a blessed forge knows that Moradin is the source of the blessing.

Any given forge can receive the forge blessing no more often than once per year.

Refine soul: At 7th level, a forge seeker can choose any one bonus feat (for which he otherwise qualifies) that permanently improves his saving throws or skill modifiers.

Fire immunity (Su): At 9th level, the forge seeker is immune to fire, magical or otherwise.

Forged anew (Ex): At 10th level, the forge seeker becomes tireless. He has no need for sleep, and may work (or travel, or otherwise engage in strenuous activity) with limitations only by circumstances. (For example, he could craft two days toward completion of a magic item in one 24 hours period; not three days, because he still must eat, drink, and otherwise attend to his body.) His skin takes on a dull lustrous metallic sheen, and he gains DR 3/adamantine.

Ex-Forge Seekers: If a forge seeker should cease to worship Moradin – including changing alignment outside the requirements, he loses any Supernatural abilities gained from the class and may no longer advance in it until he properly atones.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Bumped. Too boring/lame for comments?

 

[CleverNickName]

Okay, I'll give some feedback if nobody else will. I guess PrCs have become passé in this message board.

Prerequisites
----------------------------------------------
- I don't understand why Diplomacy is a requirement, and why so many ranks are required. From what I can tell, this class doesn't seem to focus on diplomatic skill. I'd drop it altogether.

- I would make Craft Arms and Armor and/or Forge Ring a prerequisite.

- I would make Weapon Focus (Warhammer) a requirement, since the class features focus on the use of this weapon.

- I would put a level requirement on the divine spells..."must be able to cast 3rd level divine spells" works a lot better than "must be able to cast divine spells." Otherwise, cherry-pickers will take one level of cleric, four levels of monk, and one level of this class just to get to the Wisdom bonus. (more on that later)


Class Skills
----------------------------------------------
- Diplomacy doesn't feel right; none of his class abilities use/require it. I'd drop it.


Class Features
----------------------------------------------
- Battle Hammer: Interesting ability, but probably a little top-heavy. I'd replace it with an ability similar to the Stormlord (in Complete Divine) that scales the power by level, instead of handing it all out at once. Otherwise, players will just cherry-pick the class for the first-level combat bonus, then go straight to the Monk class for the next 14 levels. May I suggest something like this instead?

Battle Hammer (Ex): At 1st level, any hammer wielded by a Seeker of the Forge is considered to be a magic weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1, and is considered to be lawfully-aligned for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction. The enhancement bonus increases to +2 at 3rd level, +3 at 6th level, and +4 (the max) at 10th level.

- Forge Blessing: evil beings gain a negative level, but still get the Craft and Item Creation bonuses? That doesn't seem right.

- Fire Immunity: this is pretty powerful, especially since it doesn't have a counter-weakness. Instead of handing out fire immunity, I would grant the [Fire] subtype instead.

- Forged Anew: why adamantine? (just curious) I'd go with DR 3/- myself. Not requiring sleep is problematic, because he is a spellcaster...you might consider changing it so that the SotF needs only one hour per day of sleep, to answer all of the questions about recharging magic ability. As for the tirelessness, I would reword it so that it is easier to use in-game. How about something like this?

Forged Anew (Su): At 10th level, the Seeker of the Forge becomes immune to fatigue. He no longer suffers the normal penalties to Strength and Dexterity when fatigued, and the penalties for exhaustion are reduced by half. He only requires one hour of sleep per day, and gains damage reduction 3/-.


Other Ideas
----------------------------------------------
- How about an ability that lets him burn Turn Undead attempts for the day, to gain bonuses to Craft checks? Something like "the Seeker of the Forge may spend one turn attempt to gain a +10 competence bonus to all Craft checks made that day" would be interesting.

- Why not offer Item Creation feats as bonus feats?

- Perhaps Moradin grants him the ability to summon a divine forge, sort of like a portable workshop that rises up from the ground and can be worked like any other forge? Paladins can summon horses when they need one, after all.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Okay, I'll give some feedback if nobody else will. I guess PrCs have become passé in this message board.

Thanks!

Prerequisites
----------------------------------------------
- I don't understand why Diplomacy is a requirement, and why so many ranks are required. From what I can tell, this class doesn't seem to focus on diplomatic skill. I'd drop it altogether.

The forge seeker, as I wrote in the prepended paragraphs, is intended as sort of an ad hoc diplomatic corps for dwarves. Among other things, Diplomacy is required because the entire idea is to be able to convince other people to allow you to use their forges -- presumably, the tools of their livelihood. 8 ranks are required because that limits the level at which the class can be entered. Nobody can get into it until 6th level.

- I would make Craft Arms and Armor and/or Forge Ring a prerequisite.

It actually was ...exactly those two options. But it just became too many requirements, and I realized those two were the least important to the feel of the class.

- I would make Weapon Focus (Warhammer) a requirement, since the class features focus on the use of this weapon.

It's not a bad idea, and again I considered it, but, again, so many requirements. (It wouldn't bother me at all, since my PC has the feat, but it's pretty exclusionary. Note that if I used these last two suggestions, a dwarf cleric wouldn't actually be able to choose a feat until 9th level ... this class eats them all until then.)

- I would put a level requirement on the divine spells..."must be able to cast 3rd level divine spells" works a lot better than "must be able to cast divine spells." Otherwise, cherry-pickers will take one level of cleric, four levels of monk, and one level of this class just to get to the Wisdom bonus. (more on that later)

Why would a monk want damage bonuses when using a warhammer?

I considered setting a minimum level of divine spells (it's another way to limit the level at which the class can be entered), but it's not really necessary.

- Battle Hammer: Interesting ability, but probably a little top-heavy. I'd replace it with an ability similar to the Stormlord (in Complete Divine) that scales the power by level, instead of handing it all out at once. Otherwise, players will just cherry-pick the class for the first-level combat bonus, then go straight to the Monk class for the next 14 levels. May I suggest something like this instead?

Battle Hammer (Ex): At 1st level, any hammer wielded by a Seeker of the Forge is considered to be a magic weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1, and is considered to be lawfully-aligned for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction. The enhancement bonus increases to +2 at 3rd level, +3 at 6th level, and +4 (the max) at 10th level.

Battle Hammer is actually lifted from the Battlesmith, in Races of Stone. It's a fairly powerful ability ... intentionally so, since the PC is giving up a caster level. Yur option is way too weak, IMO.

- Forge Blessing: evil beings gain a negative level, but still get the Craft and Item Creation bonuses? That doesn't seem right.

It's not. As wirtten in the description, only LG, LN, and NG users can get the bonuses.

- Fire Immunity: this is pretty powerful, especially since it doesn't have a counter-weakness. Instead of handing out fire immunity, I would grant the [Fire] subtype instead.

Fire immunity at 14th character level (the earliest it could come) isn't particularly strong.

- Forged Anew: why adamantine? (just curious) I'd go with DR 3/- myself.

I like the adamantine juxtaposed with the metallic nature of the apotheosis.

Not requiring sleep is problematic, because he is a spellcaster

Clerics already don't require sleep.

- How about an ability that lets him burn Turn Undead attempts for the day, to gain bonuses to Craft checks? Something like "the Seeker of the Forge may spend one turn attempt to gain a +10 competence bonus to all Craft checks made that day" would be interesting.

That's a good idea. I'll keep it in mind as I work through future drafts with my DM. (It would suck for my PC in particular, unfortunately, as he has no ability to turn undead, but that's irrelevant for the class in and of itself.)

- Why not offer Item Creation feats as bonus feats?

That's not really what the class is about. While the forge seeker can make use of the forge blessing he creates, the primary reason for it is to build goodwill among other folks who work at the forge. Accordingly, if the forge seeker wants to take advantage of forge blessing, he can buy his own item creation feats.

- Perhaps Moradin grants him the ability to summon a divine forge, sort of like a portable workshop that rises up from the ground and can be worked like any other forge? Paladins can summon horses when they need one, after all.

This sidesteps the idea of the class, again. Why seek out new people to befriend, and new forges to bless, if you can just summon up one of your own?