Forgotten Realms "Canon Lawyers"

If anything, the real issue I see is a conflict between people's expectations which is so widespread that I would suggest learning to deal with that conflict on its own. You can run into it without expecting it, including with as I mentioned before, carrots.

I don't belive this for one moment. I never herd of this problem until long after I found it myself. I spent years thinking it was my group only that had it. Then and only then did I hear other people had the exact same problem...

now on the internet it is common to complain about it. So the defualt answer fans through around is "If you never herd of the problem you never would have seen it..."

the problem is I found the problem without any help...so did others.

If the problem is not real why do so many find it on there own??
 

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Are you an existing Forgotten Realms fan?

Define your term, then I can possibly answer it in some meaningful way.

Otherwise I'll just say I've read some of the novels, but haven't bought a FR product since 1st edition, though I've read some of the books published since, and played games set in it. And yes, I have run into situations where there have been conflicts regarding canon-issues. But I don't believe it's a FR problem since I've run into so many of them outside the FR games I've played.

Why would you have this issue if you are an existing fan? I could imagine this problem being difficult to see in others.

Oh, I see the "problem" of people having a conflict regarding canon all the time. I just don't see it as a FR problem in particular, as much as a player one that can hit any subject, anywhere. Hence my suggestion of dealing with it on those terms, and not try to fix the Realms.

Seriously, if you're being ridiculed or harassed by your players, find new players.

So, you're saying that if people have an issue with FR, it is an issue with them and not with FR. I hear FR fans say this a lot. Its not really a welcoming attitude.

That is not what I was saying. Your understanding of my words is in error. Since I've clarified it above, I'll refrain from doing it further, and just ask you to re-read what I've said.

And let's leave off the comments as to attitude, that sort of thing is going to create problems. Thanks in advance.
 
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I don't belive this for one moment.

Well, you can doubt my experiences, but I don't know how I can convince you of their reality. I'm not about to invite you into my life.

Maybe you could write some fan-fiction in another setting, or get involved in some historical re-enactment, or try gaming in some non-FR settings, but me, I don't know what I can do, as I see it as something you'd have to experience for yourself.

I never herd of this problem until long after I found it myself. I spent years thinking it was my group only that had it. Then and only then did I hear other people had the exact same problem...

This realization would make me think "Hmm, maybe there are some non-FR subjects where this happens too" but then, I did run into this problem before I ran into it with the FR. Might even have been before I ran into the Realms, I'm honestly not sure.
 

This realization would make me think "Hmm, maybe there are some non-FR subjects where this happens too" but then, I did run into this problem before I ran into it with the FR. Might even have been before I ran into the Realms, I'm honestly not sure.

I've run into the "canon lawyering" problem in other rpg games, such as Marvel Superheros, DC Heros, various Star Wars rpgs, etc ...

Typically they're properties which have a lot of previous stuff written for it, such as background splatbooks, novels, comic books, movies, television shows, etc ...
 

Well, the more content you have, the more possibility you have of conflict seeping in. Especially since content will come about as there are more fans, which increases the chance you'll run into somebody. But there's people out there who will quibble if you do things wrong based on their reading of a single short story.

ETA: OTOH, there are people who can read dozens of books for a setting, and not look for any particular nit-picking canon. Me, I'm one of them. Read lots of books, I rarely notice any inconsistencies unless they're particularly egregious.
 
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I've run into the "canon lawyering" problem in other rpg games, such as Marvel Superheros, DC Heros, various Star Wars rpgs, etc ...

Typically they're properties which have a lot of previous stuff written for it, such as background splatbooks, novels, comic books, movies, television shows, etc ...
You know, I think this is an interesting point to me, though probably for reasons you were not intending.

Canon lawyering is indeed quite common, but it is particularly common for things that have "lots of previous stuff", in other words they are adaptations of things that were not originally intended to be used as settings for many new original stories created by hundreds of different fans and DMs. For such settings, large quantities of canon are simply going to exist regardless of anyone's intentions, and are a necessary evil with regards to fan fiction and RPG campaigns.

However, D&D campaign settings are a different case. Ideally, and unlike the examples you listed, such settings are in fact designed with the idea that they will be used to create countless different and likely contradictory works of campaigns and fan fiction. Treating such a setting as like the DC universe, the Star Wars universe, or any other setting defined by a central ongoing story, may well be a mistake, because treating it in such a way may take away from the intended primary goal of that kind of setting: to be a resource for creating new campaigns in a fun and easy manner. In such a case, canon goes from being a necessary evil to simply being an evil.

To be perfectly honest, this is why I like Eberron and its approach to canon. No Eberron novel is canonical, no novel can change the setting, there is no ongoing story that progresses across editions, there are no central heroic characters, there are many concepts and secrets within the setting that are officially off-limits for the establishment of canonical descriptions or explanations (WotC will not create a canonical explanation for the cause of the Mourning, among other things), and many significant elements of the setting are left intentionally vague and self-contradictory (Kaius's motivations, the nature of the Lord of Blades, the goals of the Daughters of Sora Kell, etc). Eberron deliberately avoids the establishment of canon and leaves room for DMs to fill in the holes, which is something I consider to be a necessary step for making a setting that is flexible enough to let DMs to simultaneously use a setting as written and change things around or invent things to suit the needs of a campaign.

Of course, I should also admit that I really don't like many of the later 3E splatbooks for Eberron simply because they diminish the flexibility of the setting that was established in the original ECS. In fact, I have already tangled with a couple Eberron canon lawyers who were a bit too stuck up on one interpretation of some bit of canon from a later splatbook that probably wasn't all that well thought out in the first place. Ugh...

To get back to my point, I guess I will say that Forgotten Realms may be connected to so many complaints about canon lawyering and such simply because it modeled itself on things like Star Wars continuity or the DC universe more than it should have, when a different approach works better for something that needs to be as open and flexible as a D&D campaign setting.
 

I guess I will say that Forgotten Realms may be connected to so many complaints about canon lawyering and such simply because it modeled itself on things like Star Wars continuity or the DC universe more than it should have

Something like this could have happened unintentionally, due to things like poor editorial oversight and neglect.
 

To get back to my point, I guess I will say that Forgotten Realms may be connected to so many complaints about canon lawyering and such simply because it modeled itself on things like Star Wars continuity or the DC universe more than it should have, when a different approach works better for something that needs to be as open and flexible as a D&D campaign setting.

I think that's right. I think the reason is that TSR published it as a campaign setting, but then realised they were making more money from the FR novels than from the RPG materials. So the needs of the novels (for continuity) outweighed the needs of the RPG product (as a playable setting).
 

A setting should not have expectations so strong that a DM could end up ridiculed or harrassed by his players for getting the setting "wrong".

That comment says more about the players than the DM. When FR campaigns "go bad" it's usually because of what the players bring to the table, not what the DM dishes up.

The Swordsage
 

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