How do PCs take out powerful villains? With a solid strategy, and abilities/spells/allies/items that work on synergy, i.e. everything works like a well-oiled machine. If you want to see how the Mighty Chosen may be laid low, I recommend reading 'Silverfall'; it deals (among other themes) with a Realmswide conspiracy that also involves some low-level, crafty merchants among the "top tier" (plus a number of memorable scenes and er, how to say it... quite eccentric villains). One of those merchants is a particularly nasty as a villain; not because he's a high-level character, but because he's downright *nasty*, unscrupulous and has money to spend. And that's an important point, too -- those two 14th level NPCs would probably have enough resources that with a cunning plan and patience to spring their ambush on just the right moment they might succeed... just as a couple of 14th level villains might, with luck and the right resources, catch a 28th level PC by surprise.
Forgotten Realms "Canon Lawyers"
- Thread starter wingsandsword
- Start date
How do PCs take out powerful villains? With a solid strategy, and abilities/spells/allies/items that work on synergy, i.e. everything works like a well-oiled machine. If you want to see how the Mighty Chosen may be laid low, I recommend reading 'Silverfall'; it deals (among other themes) with a Realmswide conspiracy that also involves some low-level, crafty merchants among the "top tier" (plus a number of memorable scenes and er, how to say it... quite eccentric villains). One of those merchants is a particularly nasty as a villain; not because he's a high-level character, but because he's downright *nasty*, unscrupulous and has money to spend. And that's an important point, too -- those two 14th level NPCs would probably have enough resources that with a cunning plan and patience to spring their ambush on just the right moment they might succeed... just as a couple of 14th level villains might, with luck and the right resources, catch a 28th level PC by surprise.
underthumb
First Post
I think what needed to happen was a great encyclopedia of the Realms, released in both hardbound and electronic editions. Unifying much of the lore would be a great help to GMs and having a single source would be amazing. As it is, if one wants to run a cannon-heavy game, one has to use the Forgotten Realms Candlekeep Index quite a bit to find all the references to a particular person or place. There are a great many details that reside within 1st and 2nd edition FR books. Prior to WotC removing their old PDFs, it was a lot easier to suggest purchasing these books for cheap and checking them when need be.
As for myself, I'm a Forgotten Realms GM and I believe strongly in using as much cannon as I can manage. I tend to agree with those that prefer to either go all-in with a pre-existing setting or you go all-in with their own setting. I believe that my players would like their PCs to reside in the Forgotten Realms as they understand it from source books and popular fiction, but your players may differ. They may not mind either way, and ultimately this is about the implied contract between a GM and his players, rather than the "correct" way to run an FR game.
As for myself, I'm a Forgotten Realms GM and I believe strongly in using as much cannon as I can manage. I tend to agree with those that prefer to either go all-in with a pre-existing setting or you go all-in with their own setting. I believe that my players would like their PCs to reside in the Forgotten Realms as they understand it from source books and popular fiction, but your players may differ. They may not mind either way, and ultimately this is about the implied contract between a GM and his players, rather than the "correct" way to run an FR game.
Personally, I just don't like having that stuff. Gond's gift was refused!
MercuryCrash
First Post
Just a bit of what I've done
I have come across a couple of the cannon lawyers mentioned and really basically made a rumors table in my mind. Kind of the take it with a grain of salt saying. During 3.0 I had really begun to like Forgotten Realms and started collecting everything I could get my hands on to learn more about what the world was about from 2.0 and going into 3.5. I started a campaign that lasted for years. Some of my players had known more about FR than I did in certain areas still and as they brought forth information that they wanted to use I allowed what fit best and supported the over all story of the game. I used certain places in the realms (more than say main cities like Waterdeep) to keep the feeling of being in the realms. At times I would bring in names of main characters to give a bit of icing, in fact the characters met one or two during the game. When a part of the FR wasn't quite flushed out I would create around the basis given and sometimes it would get created as the characters were going through it. I enjoyed looking up as much information in the books and the internet to best put together a great scene/adventure. I stuck to the time line as best as I knew how unless there was 2nd edition info I wanted to put in for the fun of the game or went along best with my over all story. When big events happened in FR through novels or source books we did our best to adapt it into our FR world.
Though I have yet to attempt a campaign in 4e, I see the benefits of the reset and I'm a little torn with the history being even farther in the past.
I have come across a couple of the cannon lawyers mentioned and really basically made a rumors table in my mind. Kind of the take it with a grain of salt saying. During 3.0 I had really begun to like Forgotten Realms and started collecting everything I could get my hands on to learn more about what the world was about from 2.0 and going into 3.5. I started a campaign that lasted for years. Some of my players had known more about FR than I did in certain areas still and as they brought forth information that they wanted to use I allowed what fit best and supported the over all story of the game. I used certain places in the realms (more than say main cities like Waterdeep) to keep the feeling of being in the realms. At times I would bring in names of main characters to give a bit of icing, in fact the characters met one or two during the game. When a part of the FR wasn't quite flushed out I would create around the basis given and sometimes it would get created as the characters were going through it. I enjoyed looking up as much information in the books and the internet to best put together a great scene/adventure. I stuck to the time line as best as I knew how unless there was 2nd edition info I wanted to put in for the fun of the game or went along best with my over all story. When big events happened in FR through novels or source books we did our best to adapt it into our FR world.
Though I have yet to attempt a campaign in 4e, I see the benefits of the reset and I'm a little torn with the history being even farther in the past.
JoeGKushner
Adventurer
I noticed that you skipped over my suggestion to tell the players that in your version she wasn't who she appeared to be in others.
Or ask the players why they'd know anything about the character through their characters in the first place.
But the FRCS, if we're talking about the third edition book, has her stats on page 276. It also notes under the city description that the new ruler is like W 18.
Note, neither of those things matters as much as the GM making the Realms his, and making the players the heroes.
Or ask the players why they'd know anything about the character through their characters in the first place.
But the FRCS, if we're talking about the third edition book, has her stats on page 276. It also notes under the city description that the new ruler is like W 18.
Note, neither of those things matters as much as the GM making the Realms his, and making the players the heroes.
No, you’re not one of the guys who don’t do their homework, if you’ve read the books you own. See below on what I wrote of reading the accessories you own. And, you can find a lot of FR-related information online, for example in FR Wiki.
There has been quite a many Chosen of Mystra over the years (and other deities have Chosen as well, e.g. Fzoul Chembryl as the Chosen of Bane in FRCS)…including the Seven Sisters.
Well, if you’re going to run a campaign in Cormyr, I’d probably expect you to read ‘Cormyr’-accessory and ‘Volo’s Guide to Cormyr’ as well. And if you’re running a Waterdeep campaign, I’d suggest reading at least the ‘City of Splendors’ boxed set. If you’re running your game in Silverymoon, ‘Volo’s guide to the North’ and ‘Savage Frontier’ would be good sources (and Lady Alustriel is detailed in 3E FRCS, by the way). If you don’t own the books, *then* it’s another matter; I don’t expect the DM to invest heavily (financially) in every campaign, i.e. order 1E/2E stuff via Amazon or eBay just to run it according to the canon. However, if you *do* own the books, I’d expect you to read the sources you have on Silverymoon or Cormyr or wherever you want to place your campaign in.
Um, what? I think I did explain that I don’t care about DM/campaign-specific changes, *if* they’re logical and/or explained in-game as well; if a DM would, however, implement the Eberron pantheon into his FR campaign and drop Greyhawk City into the middle of the Western Heartlands just because he can, I’d probably have a problem with that. Just as I’m sure Eberron fans would have a problem if in my campaign I’d replace Karrnath’s (sp?) ruler with a mid-level paladin NPC called Fritz van Uberwalder and swap Sharn with Suzail from FR (and unless I’m wrong, Karrnath’s ruler is a pretty high-level undead NPC who, as many Eberron fans would likely point out, could not be killed by a mid-level solo paladin).
Although I love details and using as much as lore as possible, I don’t adhere slavishly to canon, if I think changing or ignoring something benefits the campaign. As for my comment about worldbuilding… did you realize that it wasn’t a jab at you? It was simply a personal opinion that I don’t waste my time in campaigns in which the DM rewrites everything just because he feel reading the books [he owns] is too much work.
You can run a campaign with a single book, but using a detailed setting with experienced players might not be a good idea if the DM is new to the setting. And this applies to Dragonlance, Eberron, Dark Sun and any other setting you choose to name just as well as it does to FR. As I’ve said, I could just pick up ECS and run an Eberron campaign on basis of that… however, I’m fairly sure that many Eberron experts would point out that I shouldn’t run a campaign in Stormreach or adventures in Argonessen without proper sourcebooks and maps. I *could* say that it’s my Eberron campaign… but then again, so you could with FR, too. Also, many regions in FR haven't received much attention since the Grey Boxed Set anyway, so it would be way easier to set a campaign in one of these areas if you feel your players know more about the "popular" areas than you do.
And this also depends on the players, too... I've run games for people who were not into details or taking notes, and I remember a few times when such players told me to skip descriptions and details and get to rolling initiative. On the other hand, my own regular players favor social interaction, history, details and intrigue over combat, and everyone takes notes about everything.
Change for change’s sake and/or ignoring published material or replacing it with something else because you don’t like to read accessories you own is bad in my books. I'm okay with changes that are internally consistent and logical (i.e. there's a plausible reason, and it doesn't "break" any "rules" of the setting), especially if you're changing something because you feel it's going to benefit everyone.
Because for many fans that level of details was the lure and “meat” of the setting?
thecasualoblivion
First Post
A setting should not have expectations so strong that a DM could end up ridiculed or harrassed by his players for getting the setting "wrong".
GMforPowergamers
Legend
I just don't own that many FR books...
about 100 pages after the city...no refrence to those stats...I only knew becuse one of my friends told me to look at the index...
but it is illogical that these two bad guys killed her???
that is not what I did
what about one that just owns less books...
but the thing is most people don't run into these problems in any other setting...
QFT
Guess you won't be doing any historical games then. But honestly, I think either your standards are too high, or you haven't met the players I have. In my experience, players can be quite nit-picky, and unless your game has no connection to reality, something can always trip you up.
Of course, I might just say that if your players are ridiculing or harassing you, then you have a problem that's not related to the setting. It's related to the interaction between the DM and player, and should be addressed on that basis instead. Especially since players can have concerns about their expectations that don't amount to ridicule or harassment.
How do you know what most people don't run into?
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