Forgotten Realms "Canon Lawyers"

[Hussar]

Honestly, I might be wrong, but I think a shared setting might not be ideal for you, if you don't like researching the setting or using any canon lore. It's far more easier to homebrew, if you're practically going to use your own stuff anyway -- just "steal" ideas here and there and write the rest yourself.

That's the problem with FR though. I've run Scarred Lands with just the SL campaign book. Heck, for a while, I ran a Scarred Lands campaign with just the Mithril City of the Golem book. And it was fine.

I realized that FR was crushing under the weight of its own setting porn when they actually had FOUR articles written by Ed Greenwood on Rural architecture. When they have the details down to the shape of windows in the Realms, it's time to do some rebooting.

 

[Hereticus]

FWIW, when I ran a Forgotten Realms game (started a 7th level), I clearly stated up front that the only canon was the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book. Nothing else would be included (not by deliberate exclusion, but by DM ignorance of said canon). I also told the players that if they wanted a particular history or situation, that I would include it if possible. Since Drizzt was not in the FRCS, neither he nor his friends or enemies were part of the campaign setup. However later on some of the related characters were introduced by specific player request.

It worked, I did not get any "you got it wrong" comments.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Think of it as a point of conversation. In your Forgotten Realms, she's a 14th level druid.

In some official supplement, that's different.

Your version is what counts.

Every FR setting book reminds you to make it your own.

I want to touch on this again...before I Knew she was a chosen (heck before I new it was a she) I assumed these two could take out the ruler easily...at 14th level she is a druid 14, he is a rogue X, Shadow dancer Y, Assasin Z (I would need to take some time to reporduce that character...and there way of being evil assasins was for him to sneak in, her to come in as a bird, wait for the person to be alone, she codzilla the person for 3 rounds, and if (Normaly a big if) the enemy was still up they got hit by his death attack....

now as in any other setting I assumes that would sucseed as an assasination attempt...but you assume any assassination would fail...why???


Edit: Ok, so I stole my roomates FR CG 3.5 to look up Lady Alustriel...and she is a CR28 chosen wizard/sorcer so if anything I just proved my point...by running a game with only the book I looked up the city and it said nothing about her being chosen or uber epic...it was only when my roommate told me to look her up int he index I found the stats (about 100 pages after the city)...

SO anyone here not see a problem? anyone?

 

[Brother Richard]

Okay, I need to Coment on the Silverymoon Example

Alright so you are saying that there is too much canon and bloat because of this instance because you did not realize that Alustriel was a Chosen. Well, I mean, not knowing the Chosen is like the equivalent of not knowing the name of the Goddess of Magic. Also, even if you don't know it, a campaign setting does not have to assume you are going around assassinating important rulers. Thats just a bad idea in general (especially if you don't know anything about FR)

Edit: I am trying to think of an Eberron example. its sort of like killing the leader of the inspired or whatever they are called and then saying: "Well I didn't know that they were possessed by powerful Quori". Some things jsut need to be understood, especially if you are trying to meddle in a setting. Once again i want to mention that killing important characters is almost never a good idea, and also even if Alustriel was like a level 14 druid, the assassin would be killed. FR is a high powered world the magic and wards around Alustriel's chamber would be ridiculuous and her elite guards would probably all be level 14+

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Alright so you are saying that there is too much canon and bloat because of this instance because you did not realize that Alustriel was a Chosen. Well, I mean, not knowing the Chosen is like the equivalent of not knowing the name of the Goddess of Magic.

since I know where to find the list of Gods...where is the list of chosen? Heck howmany gods have chosen???

Also, even if you don't know it, a campaign setting does not have to assume you are going around assassinating important rulers.

I am not going around doingit...someone named a city I sued it as an example expecting something important would be there...when I looked up said city in FRCG it didn't even hint how powerful this person was...

Thats just a bad idea in general (especially if you don't know anything about FR)

so again, howmuch is enough knowladge...how many books do I need to read???

Edit: I am trying to think of an Eberron example. its sort of like killing the leader of the inspired or whatever they are called and then saying: "Well I didn't know that they were possessed by powerful Quori".

wow...since all inspired have quori, you suggest all city rulers are chosen???

really???

Some things jsut need to be understood, especially if you are trying to meddle in a setting.

meddle?? I want to put my own NPC in...

Once again i want to mention that killing important characters is almost never a good idea, and also even if Alustriel was like a level 14 druid, the assassin would be killed.

first the assasin was a 14th level druid...I assumed 2 14th level PC built character one being Codzilla would be enough to take out most rulers of cities...silly me,

FR is a high powered world the magic and wards around Alustriel's chamber would be ridiculuous and her elite guards would probably all be level 14+

where do I find this...it is not in the CG, or anything else I read...heck if I did fall on her stats (about 100 paages after the city is described) why would I think a CR28 chosen/caster need guards at all...





I proved my statement becuse when I made what the campiagn guide made sound like a small change (1 ruler in1 city, kinda like saying in my modern game the govoner of arazona is X) it caoused a fight...canon lawyers just showed why they HAD to change the realms...

I bet there are more DMs/Players that are my level of involvemnt in the realms...so WotC loses more and more money the more they cater to countiniy

 

[JeffB]

Knowning Canon, and being a slave to it, are two very different things. Didn't anyone else just ignore all the big name FR NPCs and novel plots?

I basically just dug into the boxed set(s) and books (Like The Savage Frontier) and used all the baddies like The Zhentarim, Church of Cyric, Xvim/Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal, etc and ignored the specific NPCs (The Fzouls & Manshoons for example) and did the same for the Good aligned orgs- Elminster, the Chosen, Drizzt, or Khelben never had any air time at all, yet the PCs could find themselves working with/for The Harpers, or the Church of (insert "good" deity" here) through low level "no name" NPCs and adventures of my own creation. The charcaters were thrust into the world like anyone- having a POV that is based on where they grew up, and what they have heard about far away places and people could be VERY different in actuality. Harpers were not know by every farmer and villager in the relams, though they may know of a good natured (pick a class) who has proven helpful to the town in times of need. Those types of groups are TOTALLY behind the scenes. while The Zhents may be well known, but the PCs are not likely to know anything about them other than the obvious an ordinary citizen under thier oppression would know (they control all trade, many are allied with a foul church and you'll be dead if you cross them or pry). While the Cleric of Sune may have some idea of what the other major faiths are about, they do not know the all the details of the Avatar Trilogy and Lord Ao, and the Chosen, and all the other "Godswar" stuff.

Maybe I'm weird, but to me FR is an absolutely fantastic setting if you just keep the idea of "The PCs are the heroes of the world" at the forefront of everything you do as the DM (this proves correct for ANY game or game world). As a player, I'd have strangled a DM if they merely were following along with the TSR Novel Division and weaving my "pawn" into the cracks of the setting. Lame.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

FR fans and the 2E and 3E eras catering to these fans to the expense of all else has given FR a bit of a bad name.

I've seen FR fans time and again say that the accusations against FR aren't objectively true. The problem with this is that objective truth has nothing to do with things. The problem with FR isn't the truth, but the perception. People see FR as the home of Uber-NPCs, Mary-Sues, overzealous fanboys and being a setting you have to master a ridiculous amount of cannon to play in.

The perception became so strong that the truth was irrelevant.

This isn't a court of law, but the court of public opinion. In the court of public opinion, the order of the day is guilty until proven innocent. FR needs to prove to the doubters that its worth going there.

 

[Brother Richard]

My Point

In FR, many npcs are extremely high level. An important thing to understand is that almost all rulers have power proportional to the politcal power of their nation/city/whatever. If this is not the case, they have someone close to them who is extremely power (like Vanderghast in Cormyr) Otherwise the extremely powerful evil people (just as powerful as those who are good) would kill that ruler instantly. Did you actually read a about Silverymoon? You didn't know that Alustriel is a Chosen, which would be in a book about it, and also, Silverymoon, while one city is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT POLITICALLY. it is the center of the North. Without it, there would be huge conceuquences. I don't feel it is the settings fault if you didn't even read a full source about the main city you are using. i feel like you would get a similar reaction in almost any campaign setting not homebrewed. if you want to kill rulers left and right, make a new setting, or thoroughly research what would happen in a shared setting, and if you do, you can fine interesting and far reaching conceuquences for the pcs to try to diminish.

I am sorry if this seems antagonistic. Maybe you feel that you shouldn't need to actually read much to be able to make big personalzied changes in a shared setting, but i strongly disagree in general, not just with FR.

 

[Bumbles]

Once again I read the campaing guide for 3e, some of the pocket novels, and part of spell Fire...I also have skimmed a few other suplments...how much "Research" must I do to be able to run this game?????

Depends on your players. This is true of many campaigns, even ones not involving the Forgotten Realms. I know one guy, you put an orange carrot before its time in a historical game, made an issue over it.

can someone please tell me why the main book of the setting is not enough???

Because the amount of content in any one book is limited, and it can't cover everything. Yet some people want more content. If you don't, more power to you, but others may feel otherwise.

Thinking of the examples you gave, Dark Sun, I'd appreciate having maps of some of the other cities to use, or the details found in the Ivory Triangle boxed set. I think they add quite a bit to it. Same with the non-Anuirean areas of Birthright. Same may apply to Ravenloft or Red Steel, don't know.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

To add to my previous post, FR has had an image problem. If the WotC and/or the FR community want the setting to grow they need to deal with that image problem. Saying that people have the wrong ideas or sticking your head in the sand do nothing to fix that.