Forgotten Realms "Canon Lawyers"

[GMforPowergamers]

Did you actually read a about Silverymoon?

The FRCG has about 1/4 of a page on the city, maybe 4 or 5 paragraphs...

You didn't know that Alustriel is a Chosen, which would be in a book about it, and also, Silverymoon, while one city is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT POLITICALLY. it is the center of the North.

It said the second part, not the first. Inorder to find the first I had to have a player tell me to look her up int he index, then I found her stats about 100 pages later...

Without it, there would be huge conceuquences.

woa...I didn't destroy the city, I just made it a little darker and more black on the black/grey/white scale...

I don't feel it is the settings fault if you didn't even read a full source about the main city you are using.

I READ THE MAIN BOOK... how many books do I need to read? I guess every singe source, or there is someplace I don't know...oh wait proveing my points...

i feel like you would get a similar reaction in almost any campaign setting not homebrewed.

then why is it that out of everyone that has these problems, 7 out of 10 are in the realms??? Again, I have run many settings fromt he main book. Why do I need MORE for this one...

if you want to kill rulers left and right, make a new setting, or thoroughly research what would happen in a shared setting, and if you do, you can fine interesting and far reaching conceuquences for the pcs to try to diminish.

I have the consquances...I am the DM I make them up. In this case it would be a small problem in the north, but a large problem in this one city. A problem for the PCs to solve...maybe overthrow these two new guys and replace them with another good aligned ruler. However I can see already no one wants to play in the setting...

I am sorry if this seems antagonistic. Maybe you feel that you shouldn't need to actually read much to be able to make big personalzied changes in a shared setting, but i strongly disagree in general, not just with FR.

It wasn't a change...it was i know nothing past the little bit in the main book. SO I created a plot. IN any other setting that would be fine...not in FR. Heaven forbid anything was changed...

 

[Bumbles]

To add to my previous post, FR has had an image problem. If the WotC and/or the FR community want the setting to grow they need to deal with that image problem. Saying that people have the wrong ideas or sticking your head in the sand do nothing to fix that.

Well, here's the thing, based on my experience, there's nothing WoTC can do about people with the kind of problem you're talking about. It's just not worth trying to change people's opinions. You may consider it to be sticking a head in the sand, but to me, it's not banging your head into a wall.

So I think WotC should do what's best for the existing customers, and not worry about pleasing the people who are already angry. If they do the right thing, they'll catch any of the people who have an open-mind anyway, so it'll all be good.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Depends on your players. This is true of many campaigns, even ones not involving the Forgotten Realms. I know one guy, you put an orange carrot before its time in a historical game, made an issue over it.

yea I know a guy (he and I hang at the same store but rearly if ever play in the same games) who is like that...

Because the amount of content in any one book is limited, and it can't cover everything. Yet some people want more content. If you don't, more power to you, but others may feel otherwise.

but more and more people (even here look at eh last thread I responded to) are telling me I HAVE to know more, and read more.

Thinking of the examples you gave, Dark Sun, I'd appreciate having maps of some of the other cities to use, or the details found in the Ivory Triangle boxed set. I think they add quite a bit to it.

But howmany PCs do you know that would be mad if I made my own map if I didn't own those sets...

Same with the non-Anuirean areas of Birthright. Same may apply to Ravenloft or Red Steel, don't know.

First red steel is just a small section of another setting, and as for raven loft, as long as you stay to the core it should be fine with the main book

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So I think WotC should do what's best for the existing customers, and not worry about pleasing the people who are already angry. If they do the right thing, they'll catch any of the people who have an open-mind anyway, so it'll all be good.

see I disagree, by jumping the setting 100 years you get to have your cake and it it too...

see all that canon and history is there, but it doesn't effect the game. Noone cares what I say about silverymoon now...

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Well, here's the thing, based on my experience, there's nothing WoTC can do about people with the kind of problem you're talking about. It's just not worth trying to change people's opinions. You may consider it to be sticking a head in the sand, but to me, it's not banging your head into a wall.

So I think WotC should do what's best for the existing customers, and not worry about pleasing the people who are already angry. If they do the right thing, they'll catch any of the people who have an open-mind anyway, so it'll all be good.

Catering to hardcore fans alone is a recipe for eventual extinction.

 

[Bumbles]

but more and more people (even here look at eh last thread I responded to) are telling me I HAVE to know more, and read more.

For what you've suggested, it might have helped a bit, yes, at least with some of the players, and with adapting your desired changes to the existing setting. I honestly don't know, I've not read the 3e FRCS let alone the 4e one. I don't even have the 2e books, and my 1e books are packed, so I can't check their content to see if they mention Alustriel, though I'm pretty sure that one of the add-on books covering the area did.

But howmany PCs do you know that would be mad if I made my own map if I didn't own those sets...

PCs? I dunno, but I do know some players who might be familiar with the parts of the setting, and make a character concept based on them, and then if you turned around and said that it wouldn't work, they might be a bit upset. Including me. The details would indeed matter, some changes may not bother me, such as not having all of Nibenay's templars act as his wives.

First red steel is just a small section of another setting,

And if you changed the rest of Mystara without any knowledge of it, it might be a problem. I wouldn't object if you put Red Steel into your own campaign world though.

and as for raven loft, as long as you stay to the core it should be fine with the main book

Depends on the players, I would never assume you wouldn't have some problem.

see I disagree, by jumping the setting 100 years you get to have your cake and it it too...

see all that canon and history is there, but it doesn't effect the game. Noone cares what I say about silverymoon now...

That might have been the plan.

Catering to hardcore fans alone is a recipe for eventual extinction.

Excuse me, I guess I wasn't clear that I wasn't suggesting catering to the extreme, I was simply saying that trying to please the angry isn't that feasible an endeavor in my opinion. If they're opponents already, they're either going to change their minds if you make a good product, or they won't no matter what you do, but making any particular effort to please them is as viable as banging your head against the wall. All you'll get is a headache.

They should worry about making a good product, and not waste time worrying about the harping critics who I've found won't be pleased whatever you do.

In other words, ignore that extreme. Stick to the middle, possibly with a nod to the ones in your favor. You'll still pick up anybody with an open mind, and won't lose your core with appeals to a fringe.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Excuse me, I guess I wasn't clear that I wasn't suggesting catering to the extreme, I was simply saying that trying to please the angry isn't that feasible an endeavor in my opinion. If they're opponents already, they're either going to change their minds if you make a good product, or they won't no matter what you do, but making any particular effort to please them is as viable as banging your head against the wall. All you'll get is a headache.

They should worry about making a good product, and not waste time worrying about the harping critics who I've found won't be pleased whatever you do.

In other words, ignore that extreme. Stick to the middle, possibly with a nod to the ones in your favor. You'll still pick up anybody with an open mind, and won't lose your core with appeals to a fringe.

FR prior to 4E tended to cater to the extreme, namely the hardcore FR fan. It garned a bad rep that led reasonable people to come to the conclusion: "I'd love to play FR, if it wasn't for all the crap". Its sin wasn't creating undeserved hate. Its sin was giving the impression of there being enough baggage to make it not worth the hassle of buying into the setting.

 

[S'mon]

Knowning Canon, and being a slave to it, are two very different things. Didn't anyone else just ignore all the big name FR NPCs and novel plots?

I basically just dug into the boxed set(s) and books (Like The Savage Frontier) and used all the baddies like The Zhentarim, Church of Cyric, Xvim/Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal, etc and ignored the specific NPCs (The Fzouls & Manshoons for example) and did the same for the Good aligned orgs- Elminster, the Chosen, Drizzt, or Khelben never had any air time at all, yet the PCs could find themselves working with/for The Harpers, or the Church of (insert "good" deity" here) through low level "no name" NPCs and adventures of my own creation. The charcaters were thrust into the world like anyone- having a POV that is based on where they grew up, and what they have heard about far away places and people could be VERY different in actuality. Harpers were not know by every farmer and villager in the relams, though they may know of a good natured (pick a class) who has proven helpful to the town in times of need. Those types of groups are TOTALLY behind the scenes. while The Zhents may be well known, but the PCs are not likely to know anything about them other than the obvious an ordinary citizen under thier oppression would know (they control all trade, many are allied with a foul church and you'll be dead if you cross them or pry). While the Cleric of Sune may have some idea of what the other major faiths are about, they do not know the all the details of the Avatar Trilogy and Lord Ao, and the Chosen, and all the other "Godswar" stuff.

Maybe I'm weird, but to me FR is an absolutely fantastic setting if you just keep the idea of "The PCs are the heroes of the world" at the forefront of everything you do as the DM (this proves correct for ANY game or game world). As a player, I'd have strangled a DM if they merely were following along with the TSR Novel Division and weaving my "pawn" into the cracks of the setting. Lame.

Sounds good - again, these are the kind of ideas that get me wanting to run an FR game.

 

[Primal]

FR prior to 4E tended to cater to the extreme, namely the hardcore FR fan. It garned a bad rep that led reasonable people to come to the conclusion: "I'd love to play FR, if it wasn't for all the crap". Its sin wasn't creating undeserved hate. Its sin was giving the impression of there being enough baggage to make it not worth the hassle of buying into the setting.

Yet that "glut" of lore in novels, articles and accessories is what made FR so popular... therefore I don't think it catered just to the needs of a small gathering of diehard fans. Could it have been ever *more* successful by adopting a "lore light" approach? We can't say, just as we can't say if all those people who claim they would have loved to play in "less crappy" (to use the same expression as above) FR actually *would* have bought the products. I have a very strong gut feeling (based on anecdotal evidence and top seller lists), though, that a more "lore light" [4E] FR didn't go over as well as WoTC anticipated, and this may even have lead to the "3 books per setting" policy (IIRC before the books were out, Rich Baker mentioned other upcoming FR books that were supposed to be published after Spellgard). This is all my personal speculation, though.

 

[Bumbles]

FR prior to 4E tended to cater to the extreme, namely the hardcore FR fan.

How so? What examples would you give of this tendency? A conclusion is one thing, but backing it up may help me understand your position better. Especially since for reasons unrelated to any setting, I was out of the loop for about a decade.