Forgotten Realms "Canon Lawyers"

[Primal]

For the whole Eberron vs. the Realms thing...

The big difference is that all the novels are officially nan-canonical, and that the stories of the novels are all explicitly supposed to not mess with the setting. The authors are forbidden from doing things like restarting the Last War and wiping out Aundair. I'm not sure how well the novels stick to the idea (I never read any of them), but that is nonetheless the way the novels were pitched to the fanbase back when Eberron was first released. In a sense, Eberron is a setting that is rooted in a particular point in time, which is one of the big reasons there was a big fan outcry against the idea of moving forward with the timeline in the transition to 4E.

Also, the way things are phrased in the Eberron setting book itself is designed to make the setting as open and flexible as possible, so that there are more mysteries than hard answers, and some mysteries that were designed to never be answered. There was a lot of supplemental material afterwards, but I personally have always considered it to be totally optional, and not all that necessary for getting in to the heart of the setting (especially since some of it gives more detail than it should).

Finally, the most important reason a lot of these things I just mentioned were done is to explicitly make Eberron different than the Forgotten Realms. The people at WotC were quite open about acknowledging that the path they were taking with Eberron was deliberately different than the way they built the Realms around canon, partly because there was such a large part of the D&D fanbase that felt like it was too hard to get into the Realms, and WotC wanted to sell a setting that was easier to get into.

I guess, it can be said that if any canon lawyers exist for Eberron, it is despite the best efforts of the setting, and their existence runs contrary to some of the goals of the setting itself. What is more, there are extremely important areas of the setting where no amount of canon lawyering will affect the DM's campaign, since the canon simply doesn't exist. The same can't be said of the Forgotten Realms, which is why there is a perceived problem.

I'm not saying that Eberron is as detailed as FR, but I do remember reading about local foods and clothing and habits and whatnot (in 'Five Kingdoms'?). And religions (someone mentioned bits and pieces being published in almost every accessory) and some areas *are* quite detailed (Sharn and Stormreach, for example). Now, I personally know some Eberron fanatics who would scoff at me for trying to run Eberron with one or two books only, and they'd more than likely correct me about "errors" in details. And woe unto me if I tried to deliberately change the canon...

Every setting has its own diehard fanatics, just as every game has its rules lawyers (well, except for narrativist indie RPGs, perhaps). FR may be more detailed than others, but I see this issue being related to player personality and mindset rather than anything else.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm not saying that Eberron is as detailed as FR, but I do remember reading about local foods and clothing and habits and whatnot (in 'Five Kingdoms'?). And religions (someone mentioned bits and pieces being published in almost every accessory) and some areas *are* quite detailed (Sharn and Stormreach, for example).

let me show you the diffrence...one is detailed in one of like 10 rpg books, each has about 200 pages...

now try to tell me there are not infinit more realms???

Now, I personally know some Eberron fanatics who would scoff at me for trying to run Eberron with one or two books only, and they'd more than likely correct me about "errors" in details. And woe unto me if I tried to deliberately change the canon...

as long as that group stays a minority...not a problem...everyone know a jerk or two...but the realms consitnantly has had these problems...and to make it worse, these cannon lawyers and nit pickers have not only a dozen or 2 dozen supplments (witch in and of itself would be hard for a dm), but over a 100 suplments spread through 3 edtions, and atleast 100 novels...

Every setting has its own diehard fanatics, just as every game has its rules lawyers (well, except for narrativist indie RPGs, perhaps). FR may be more detailed than others, but I see this issue being related to player personality and mindset rather than anything else.

then why is there a spike in FR canon lawyers over any and all other settings?????

at some point you have to stop blameing it on "well people are jerks" becuse those same peopls aren't like this with other settings...and people have less and less problems with other setting...


as I said before human nature plays a part...but you guys gotta meet me half way here...the game was designed badly...



NOTE: by badly I don't mean like it itself is bad, I like the setting, but too many people run into the "I can't run this" groups...witch effects sales as more and more people take the advice from this very thread "If you group doesn't do this well play another setting" witch was killing the realms...becuse the more DMS that felt that way were more lost sales...

 

[Bumbles]

then why is there a spike in FR canon lawyers over any and all other settings?????

It's got little to do with the setting itself. I see it as related to more people playing it, more people reading the novels and other books.

at some point you have to stop blameing it on "well people are jerks" becuse those same peopls aren't like this with other settings...and people have less and less problems with other setting...

For the first, a person can be demanding on authenticity on one subject, but ignorant enough of others that they don't notice the flaws. Or they can even just not care, despite knowing better. For the second, I don't agree with that at all, as I've had the problems with other settings that had nothing to do with the Realms, that were far less detailed than the Realms. Like one single campaign book. It's just as hard to resolve when it crops up there.

If anything, people might even be more forgiving if you don't know the dozen books versus the one.

as I said before human nature plays a part...but you guys gotta meet me half way here...the game was designed badly...

At most, it's a problem of implementation, but I consider it an inevitable one, not one you can avoid effectively.

NOTE: by badly I don't mean like it itself is bad, I like the setting, but too many people run into the "I can't run this" groups...witch effects sales as more and more people take the advice from this very thread "If you group doesn't do this well play another setting" witch was killing the realms...becuse the more DMS that felt that way were more lost sales...

And how many people felt "Wow, they're making another book for me! I'm so happy with that" ? There are very few decisions that make everybody happy. Just look at the folks who stuck with 3.5. Or 2nd. Or 1st.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Its not important who is responsible for canon lawyerism - world development, book flooding, individual DMs and/or players, novels etc. The problem exists and has to be dealt with. The "run this as written or don´t run it" thought must be killed with fire. We need a return to the "choose what you like, scrap the rest" mindset. This is (as always, IMHO) the only way to run a lore-heavy world like FR.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It's got little to do with the setting itself. I see it as related to more people playing it, more people reading the novels and other books.

I love the fac that you incest a problem witht he setting is everything but the settings fault...

For the first, a person can be demanding on authenticity on one subject, but ignorant enough of others that they don't notice the flaws. Or they can even just not care, despite knowing better. For the second, I don't agree with that at all, as I've had the problems with other settings that had nothing to do with the Realms, that were far less detailed than the Realms. Like one single campaign book. It's just as hard to resolve when it crops up there.

really, then why at cons and on these boards do the FR out strip all the other complaints togather???

At most, it's a problem of implementation, but I consider it an inevitable one, not one you can avoid effectively.

actualy it is easy to avoid...don't over load the canon, and don't stat out dozens (if not hundreds) of deus ex macina, mary sue, chosen NPCs.

again imagin a realms where no novel is canon...and no NPC is stated over the PHB level...or heck maybe only 1 or 2...

And how many people felt "Wow, they're making another book for me! I'm so happy with that" ? There are very few decisions that make everybody happy. Just look at the folks who stuck with 3.5. Or 2nd. Or 1st.

you do realize each book ADDed to the problem

The problem exists and has to be dealt with.

You know that is the best line of this thread so far...

The "run this as written or don´t run it" thought must be killed with fire. We need a return to the "choose what you like, scrap the rest" mindset. This is (as always, IMHO) the only way to run a lore-heavy world like FR.

 

[Bumbles]

The "run this as written or don´t run it" thought must be killed with fire. We need a return to the "choose what you like, scrap the rest" mindset. This is (as always, IMHO) the only way to run a lore-heavy world like FR.

Well, I prefer the "Don't argue about pettiness" solution, but since I've found people have different ideas about that, i'm not sure there's an actual solution to the problem.

 

[Primal]

Its not important who is responsible for canon lawyerism - world development, book flooding, individual DMs and/or players, novels etc. The problem exists and has to be dealt with. The "run this as written or don´t run it" thought must be killed with fire. We need a return to the "choose what you like, scrap the rest" mindset. This is (as always, IMHO) the only way to run a lore-heavy world like FR.

Well, that's exactly what I (and my friends) do, and I don't see why anyone else (especially if your group even doesn't have any real FR canon lawyers) couldn't do it. I read the relevant sources and pick what I like, while subtly changing whatever needs to be changed to benefit/improve some aspect of the campaign. If someone points out that I'm deviating from canon, I usually say that there's a logical reason for the change that he (and his character) is not aware of.

 

[Uzzy]

The "run this as written or don´t run it" thought must be killed with fire. We need a return to the "choose what you like, scrap the rest" mindset. This is (as always, IMHO) the only way to run a lore-heavy world like FR.

Good thing that the FRCS explicitly says that then, isn't it? On Page 297.

The novels being canon is irrelevant, by the way. What's important is that they don't change the setting in large ways. Arilyn Moonblade running around Waterdeep is fine. But whole nations changing, new nations being created, full scale wars etc (Known together as RSE's), that's where the problem lies. Guess what WoTC haven't changed?

 

[Primal]

let me show you the diffrence...one is detailed in one of like 10 rpg books, each has about 200 pages...

now try to tell me there are not infinit more realms???

And for a new guy, that’s still over 2000 pages, right? Yet just like in Eberron, most of the stuff published in the Realms is very area-specific, so it does not matter so much; if you want to get the most out of your FR campaign, get the Volo’s Guide and the book from the FR1-16 series for the area you’re running in, plus possibly FR Adventures (lots of city maps in it), Faiths & Avatars, GHoTR, Lords of Darkness, Magic of Faerun and the campaign setting. If you’re running in an area that was covered by a 3E book, you could purchase that, too (you won’t even need ‘Faiths and Pantheons’, because 90% of the contents is just republished lore from ‘Faiths & Avatars’). And that’s pretty much my list for the “best” sources for a detailed campaign set in the Realms (you could probably drop Lords of Darkness from that list, if you want to).

as long as that group stays a minority...not a problem...everyone know a jerk or two...but the realms consitnantly has had these problems...and to make it worse, these cannon lawyers and nit pickers have not only a dozen or 2 dozen supplments (witch in and of itself would be hard for a dm), but over a 100 suplments spread through 3 edtions, and atleast 100 novels...

Where and who are these canon lawyers? In your group? I haven’t even read most of the novels, and I’m pretty sure I could hold my own against these ardent fanatics you talk about – or, at least offer logical reasons why things X, Y and Z are different from the canon books in my campaign. You don’t need a hundred books to run a game, because not even the worst fanatics would remember *everything* they’ve read.

If your group has players (canon lawyers) who distract play with their smart remarks, try to discuss their behavior with them. If nothing seems to help use a canon NPC as a BBEG in your campaign… and then tell these players that he’s untouchable, because killing him would make your campaign non-canonical. You could also offer them the DM’s chair, since they’re so knowledgeable… then start asking very specific question about local affairs (gossip/rumours, architecture, geography, NPC names and looks and so on) and keep doing it for a while and see if the new DM can stay consistent with all that. I’m pretty sure that will drive the point home sooner or later, i.e. that it’s about the game and having fun, and not getting every detail 100% right all the time as they were presented in some post/article/novel that nobody else has read.

Of course, if you don’t read the books (the campaign setting plus maybe the sources that have info on the area you selected), or set a game into an area which the players have previous exposure to and knowledge about (but you don’t), then it’s a different thing. For example, if you start a campaign in Silverymoon and don’t know who Alustriel is or I just plug Hollowfaust into Sharn’s place and call it ‘Sharn – The City of Vampires’, most fans (regardless of whether they’re actual canon lawyers or not) would probably do more than just raise their eyebrows. And can you blame anyone for that?

then why is there a spike in FR canon lawyers over any and all other settings?????

at some point you have to stop blameing it on "well people are jerks" becuse those same peopls aren't like this with other settings...and people have less and less problems with other setting...

as I said before human nature plays a part...but you guys gotta meet me half way here...the game was designed badly...

The game? You mean 4E? Oh, you meant the setting… (alright, enough sarcasm already). You have to remember that FR was TSR’s flagship product… of course they wanted to milk it for what it was worth, and put out products at an alarming rate (without any quality control, it seems). That, however, does not mean FR is a bad setting. Nor does it mean that the amount and depth of lore is automatically bad for the setting (I’m personally of the mind that more is always the merrier, because it means that I have more stuff to choose from and less to write). Wherever you wish to run your campaigns, it’s quite easy to identify the necessary sources for a “bare-bones” campaign… if you *want* to add more details (such as about archiculture, customs, festival or clothing) it’s there. I’m not sure how many players *actually* expect you to know or remember specific details, such as local festivals and delicacies in Marsember, by heart. Or the resident noble families.

I haven’t seen this “spike of canon lawyers” you talk about…

NOTE: by badly I don't mean like it itself is bad, I like the setting, but too many people run into the "I can't run this" groups...witch effects sales as more and more people take the advice from this very thread "If you group doesn't do this well play another setting" witch was killing the realms...becuse the more DMS that felt that way were more lost sales...

I’m fairly sure (and this is, naturally, based on anecdotal evidence shown on Candlekeep.com and the WoTC boards) that 4E FR books didn’t sell nearly as well as WoTC anticipated, and I would be very surprised if 3E FRCS didn’t sell more copies. Of course, I cannot confirm it, but it’s a strong gut feeling that tells me so. And by getting rid of the depth of lore and details WoTC didn’t just (apparently) fail to garner a new customer base… I think they also lost the “old guard”, who thought these aspect of the setting was the reason to *love* it and buy the product.

And who has said that “if your group doesn’t do this well, play in another setting”? I don’t think anyone has said it so far.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

And for a new guy, that’s still over 2000 pages, right?

right...becuse when I say less is better, you have to set up a strawman and think I mean not addtional info...

Yet just like in Eberron, most of the stuff published in the Realms is very area-specific, so it does not matter so much;

actualy, it leaves penty of room, even in the areas detailed so that this problem wont crop up...infact it was one of the selling points...

if you want to get the most out of your FR campaign, get the Volo’s Guide and the book from the FR1-16 series for the area you’re running in, plus possibly FR Adventures (lots of city maps in it), Faiths & Avatars, GHoTR, Lords of Darkness, Magic of Faerun and the campaign setting.

what is wrong with running a campign with just the main book??? you just suggected possible 16 mods, and 4 suplments...

If you’re running in an area that was covered by a 3E book, you could purchase that, too (you won’t even need ‘Faiths and Pantheons’, because 90% of the contents is just republished lore from ‘Faiths & Avatars’). And that’s pretty much my list for the “best” sources for a detailed campaign set in the Realms (you could probably drop Lords of Darkness from that list, if you want to).

wow more books...yea that is always the answer...spend more time and money...why do you people all think the answer is to become what we hate...the canon 'experts'

Where and who are these canon lawyers? In your group?

I mentioned 4 in one of my posts a few pages back...if you look around the front page you will find a thread called "Mary sue I don't understand" that has a huge argument over this...

I haven’t even read most of the novels, and I’m pretty sure I could hold my own against these ardent fanatics you talk about – or, at least offer logical reasons why things X, Y and Z are different from the canon books in my campaign. You don’t need a hundred books to run a game, because not even the worst fanatics would remember *everything* they’ve read.

wow, but you remember more then they do...how great you caan out think canon lawyers by knowing but loads of it...so still no answer...


as for:

You don’t need a hundred books to run a game, because not even the worst fanatics would remember *everything* they’ve read

all he needs is to have read 1 novel, or acsessory more then you...and remember something from it...

If your group has players (canon lawyers) who distract play with their smart remarks, try to discuss their behavior with them.

again with the idea it is just my group...again I did this, and they tried, but they couldn't hold back everything they knew, and it just didn't 'feel' like the realms...AND IT IS NOT AN UNHEARD OF PROBLEM...

Of course, if you don’t read the books (the campaign setting plus maybe the sources that have info on the area you selected), or set a game into an area which the players have previous exposure to and knowledge about (but you don’t), then it’s a different thing.

there is no part of the setting I know more about then my roommate...he has every fr book. and even HE stoped running the realms...becuse of these same basic things...

For example, if you start a campaign in Silverymoon and don’t know who Alustriel is

OK, now I am feed up with this sh-- I took a city name someone else in the thread talked about...and talked about a general plot idea.

then when the god like untouchable npc chosen was there, I took my roommates base book to see if this info was provided...I found about 1/4 a page on the city...and guess what was not mentioned in the MAIN BOOK DESCRIBEING THIS CITY...didn't see fit to say 'she is a CR 28 archmage chosen...you would think something so important would be mentioned...or atleast say see pg XXX.

or I just plug Hollowfaust into Sharn’s place and call it ‘Sharn – The City of Vampires’, most fans (regardless of whether they’re actual canon lawyers or not) would probably do more than just raise their eyebrows. And can you blame anyone for that?

WOW another strawman... the basic eberon book describes what sharn is...yu would CHOOSE to disregard this...

That, however, does not mean FR is a bad setting.

notice you didn;t quote me saying the exact same??

Wherever you wish to run your campaigns, it’s quite easy to identify the necessary sources for a “bare-bones” campaign…

you know the main book...

if you *want* to add more details (such as about archiculture, customs, festival or clothing) it’s there. I’m not sure how many players *actually* expect you to know or remember specific details, such as local festivals and delicacies in Marsember, by heart. Or the resident noble families.

who are you talking about here??? noble families...local festivals, who ever said that was the problem???

lets recap here:

elminster...symbol...blackstaff...alustrial...thay...cult of dragon...these are the problems so far...at least by this thread...


I haven’t seen this “spike of canon lawyers” you talk about…

maybe you should take a look through this thread, the mary sue thread (until elminster was banned), the ebberon v fr thread...or go to the WotC thread history of the FR sub board.

I’m fairly sure (and this is, naturally, based on anecdotal evidence shown on Candlekeep.com and the WoTC boards) that 4E FR books didn’t sell nearly as well as WoTC anticipated,

WHAT!!!!???? I call bs, every bit of proof (mostly sercumstantial) points to the reverse...that is just out right lieing at this point...

Of course, I cannot confirm it, but it’s a strong gut feeling that tells me so.

oh, so you weren't lieing per say...just makeing up what you want to be true...based on nothing

And by getting rid of the depth of lore and details WoTC didn’t just (apparently) fail to garner a new customer base… I think they also lost the “old guard”, who thought these aspect of the setting was the reason to *love* it and buy the product.

HA...really then tell me why LFR is going strong?

if you are going to just make stuff up with not proof, how are we going to discuse this at all???

And who has said that “if your group doesn’t do this well, play in another setting”? I don’t think anyone has said it so far.

really??? are you forgetting earlier posts in this very thread??



you know what this is getting use nowhere, so let me recap teh first post...

This is about the so-called "canon lawyer", the person with huge archives of Forgotten Realms knowledge in their head that not only knows obscure minutiae of Faerun and Abeir-Toril, they also expect any FR game to use all of this.

The thing is, I always hear these "canon lawyer" horror stories online but I never ran across them in real life. When I run Forgotten Realms the players I run with generally know the Realms from playing Baldur's Gate or following some of the novels (particularly the Elminster or Drizzt ones), or they are also a casual fan and have read some of the gaming materials, especially those about a part of the setting they prefer (one of my friends likes Netheril, for example, and knows that decently well, but he couldn't rattle off dates and obscure minutiae).

I've ran into them in message boards, like when I once said something about the Forgotten Realms that is contradicted by some obscure public e-mail Ed Greenwood from years ago that was dutifully archived, and I've heard some horror stories about them here, but I do really wonder, just how common are they in typical Forgotten Realms D&D play?

now I think we have seen those players in this very thread...