Forgotten Realms "Canon Lawyers"

[Faraer]

Again, I think I'll need cites for that, as I've never seen those claims. Right now, I just your word for it. I haven't invested years of my life studying FR canon, though.

You're right, I sometimes overestimate how well-known this is. Here are a few quickly scrounged citations: the interview in Dragon #335, Candlekeep.com here (search for "No, of course not") and here, and a 1998 REALMS-L post which I can't find in the archive so I'll quote from:

To forestall complaints from several correspondents that "I always
write about my favorite characters," I may as well tell everyone that
novelists for TSR submit outlines of their planned novels for
editorial approval (how else could all the creative folks involved
keep everything straight?). Of all my novels, only one bears my chosen
title (SPELLFIRE), although several of the others have titles chosen
by TSR from lists I submitted (no prizes for guessing which ones).

Part of the outline process involves agreement on which characters and
locations will be written about; for the record, it wasn't my original
intention to involve either Elminster or any of the other Chosen (yes,
that includes Storm and the rest of the Seven) directly in any of my
fiction; I'd rather show you Mirt and Asper, the Knights of Myth
Drannor, and hitherto-unseen characters such as Shandril.

Unfortunately, some of the information from Wizards people has been lost in wipes of the Wizards.com message boards.

Look at the post by Lancelot, several of the posts by Gmforpowergamers, etc.

Ah, in the other thread. I did answer most of Gmforpowergamers's stuff until I stopped, and I missed Lancelot's. Well, of course Elminster's really powerful. I don't agree with all his interpretations, but that really is 'he said'/'she said', no? More to the point, I think, all this fuss about who's powerful is specifically a point of view of villains in the Realms, and not how Ed thinks -- just chalk and cheese ways of thinking. My quick citation there is the whole of Elminster in Hell.

Well, what you're doing is arguing FR canon, claiming (repeatedly now) to be some kind of authority on the matter while simulataneously stating that everybody who disagrees with you is incorrect. If that isn't "canon lawyering," I don't know what is.

Of course I'm arguing, along with other people, about what Realms 'canon' is, that's part of this discussion. I dislike the basic idea of 'canon' and have argued strongly, here and in the past, for why it shouldn't in the least dictate or be required in individual campaigns.

 

[S'mon]

Look at the post by Lancelot, several of the posts by Gmforpowergamers, etc. Many of them mention the often idealized, nigh-ominipotent, nature of Elminster. All of which are known and recognized traits of Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters.

Plus the having sex with pretty well every powerful female NPC. It comes across like Gandalf/Galadriel slash fanfic. I'm no Realmsian, but I did get 2e Drow of Underdark and its opening/framing intro scene is El in the hot tub with some Drow matriarch!

 

[S'mon]

Given that his main campaign's still going after 30-odd years. and the uniformly enthusiastic reports of both his regular players and those at convention and library games he's DMed, we know that his players enjoy his DMing very much.

Yes, it may well be that Ed has the gnomic charisma to pull this off. It's still a terrible model for most GMs, though.

 

[jdrakeh]

Plus the having sex with pretty well every powerful female NPC. It comes across like Gandalf/Galadriel slash fanfic. I'm no Realmsian, but I did get 2e Drow of Underdark and its opening/framing intro scene is El in the hot tub with some Drow matriarch!

Yeah. . . that stuff squicks me out, hence why I didn't mention it.

 

[Faraer]

Yes, it may well be that Ed has the gnomic charisma to pull this off. It's still a terrible model for most GMs, though.

If he did it all the time, and for the reasons given above, I agree, it would be. But that's one little quote out of a lot of information we have on his DMing.

Ah, I found the post I was looking for. Here's a better glimpse of the home Realms campaign: here and search for "not long after the Knights are settled in Shadowdale".

Plus the having sex with pretty well every powerful female NPC. It comes across like Gandalf/Galadriel slash fanfic. I'm no Realmsian, but I did get 2e Drow of Underdark and its opening/framing intro scene is El in the hot tub with some Drow matriarch!

This is one of those things that people confidently recite but just isn't so -- we're talking a handful (one sordid Wizards.com thread listed them) over a thousand years versus -- I don't know what you call 'powerful', but I could list hundreds. [Edit: Or you could look through the NPC lists at the Realms wiki.] Casual nudity (squick if you like) doesn't equal sex in Faerûn.

 

[Parlan]

Casual nudity (squick if you like) doesn't equal sex in Faerûn.

I don't know about Faerun, but here in the really-real world, nekkid with a chick in a hot tub is about as close to equalling sex as you can get.

Seriously.

 

[S'mon]

This is one of those things that people confidently recite but just isn't so -- we're talking a handful (one sordid Wizards.com thread listed them) over a thousand years...

I'm not talking about the official backstory, I'm talking about what I've actually seen "on-stage" in my limited exposure to El & the Realms.

As for "nudity =/= sex in the Realms", no that's not how it comes across at all. That just seems disingenuous. It's all terribly nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean say no more... the presentation of Realms nudity I've seen is not at all asexual, it's prurient.

 

[Parlan]

Personally, I think that if a DM is not fully versed in a setting, then they shouldn't run it for knowledgable fans of that setting - unless, of course, the players are fine with the DM's lack of knowledge.

"Fully versed" is a pretty high bar for DMs.

I buy a published setting because something about it gets my creative juices flowing. I buy it because any time my players say, "We head south. What do we find?" I can look at a map and answer them.

I don't buy it to spend hours memorizing trivia so I will know what secret door is hidden in what inn, and what the name of every blacksmith/bar maid is.

 

[amysrevenge]

No real opinion about the main issue here, except for this:

Are there people out there claiming that Ed didn't enjoy dressing up as Elminster at GenCon? I met him there once, while he was in-costume and in-character, and he sure looked and acted like he was enjoying himself immensely... Send the boy an Oscar if he was only pretending.

 

[Faraer]

I'm not talking about the official backstory, I'm talking about what I've actually seen "on-stage" in my limited exposure to El & the Realms.

I didn't know how else to read "pretty well every powerful female NPC".

As for "nudity =/= sex in the Realms", no that's not how it comes across at all. That just seems disingenuous. It's all terribly nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean say no more... the presentation of Realms nudity I've seen is not at all asexual, it's prurient.

I'm not saying it's always asexual. If it comes across as prurient to you, it's likely because the Code of Ethics meant there are indeed instances where nudity has stood in for sex in Realmslore, much as all the brothels were called festhalls. There are other instances where it's just open nakedness, which is rather confusing. But the underlying attitude, when it shows through the censorship, is a greater openness about sex than in most of our world. See the post here, for instance ("You know, I always wonder").

Are there people out there claiming that Ed didn't enjoy dressing up as Elminster at GenCon? I met him there once, while he was in-costume and in-character, and he sure looked and acted like he was enjoying himself immensely... Send the boy an Oscar if he was only pretending.

By all accounts he got a huge kick out of it, and the same (with multiple characters) in the 'Spin a Yarn' sessions, and when he DMs.