D&D General Forgotten Realms - why do you still like running games here? +

[SableWyvern]

Being 3e based, I feel Forgotten Realms already supported change as such, with the kingdom of many arrows (was disappointed that this was changed later) and Eilistraee and her drow followers, and allows better than some places will have cultures of straight evil drow and orcs, but other areas may be more nuanced.

My impression taken from the 1e material is that Waterdeep, at least, is already cosmopolitan and that people there already associate with "monster" races (coming up from underneath, I assume, as a posse of orcs aren't likely to get the same benefit of the doubt while frolicking about in the surrounding countryside) and will be aware they're not all evil caricatures. Not to mention that one of the most iconic D&D characters ever is Drizzt, who shows that not all drow are evil.

The orcs of the High Forest also have a very distinctive culture, at the very least implying the same can be done for other groupings. There are also mentions in FR5 of orcs trading with humans, so we know they're capable of more than just raiding and killing for things.

The setting as a whole is sometimes presented as a bit of a black-and-white one, with a number of very upstanding heroes in service to active and benevolent gods but it also comes across to me with the feeling that things are all a bit more complex under the surface. Perhaps that's just me reading my own preferences into it but, at the very least, the potential is there and I don't think its hard to integrate some moral complexity with existing material.

But I also hold the position there was always room for nuance with this stuff, and I've always been bemused by the assertion that ideas like "orcs don't have to be irredeemably evil" is some kind of modern invention.

Finally, I have to shout out to @Yora yet again. His blog (and possibly the EnWorld thread I linked earlier) talks at length about how the orcs are driven to raiding by a combination of angry gods and limited resources, and has plenty of good ideas for presenting them as a lot more than, "monster, evil, kill!"

 

[TheSword]

Hopefully not opening a can of worms- but does everyone still running the realms run their drow and orcs in the traditional sense (monoculture and always bad enough to kill) or have you altered this in your world? Not a judgement statement, but it seems a lot of people have warmed up to not running races this way (either due to ethical implications or simply because it can become dull over time), while some have strong arguments for the traditional approach. It seems to me that altering these approaches has an impact on a setting like the Realms (and Greyhawk) more than it does on some others.

If you've changed your approach, how has it affected your version of the realms?

For me, Dark Seldarine worshipping Drow are as a general rule a pretty nasty bunch. Though there are exceptions and I would not object to a good or neutral drow PC. Just most Drow you meet in my games are going to be bad guys. There are definitely communities of Drow worshipping the Sword Maiden. They’re just very rare.

Not really bothered by Orcs to be honest. I don’t think they’re a particularly interesting creature in D&D so I tend not to use them.

 

[haakon1]

Hopefully not opening a can of worms- but does everyone still running the realms run their drow and orcs in the traditional sense (monoculture and always bad enough to kill) or have you altered this in your world?

Was it a true “always” situation in FR?

IIRC, 1980’s Unearthed Arcana, which is basically setting neutral, had at least one nonevil Orcish deity. I believe the Cave Mother.

3e/3.5e explicitly had a “usually”, not an always, alignment on orcs, humans, and almost everything else sentient and not extraplanar.

 

[earthsea_wizard]

with the kingdom of many arrows (was disappointed that this was changed later)

What was changed? I know he and (I think) Bruenor reach a sort of truce or even start working together, right?

and Eilistraee and her drow followers

I am not well versed in her, can you tell me more?

 

[earthsea_wizard]

Not to mention that one of the most iconic D&D characters ever is Drizzt, who shows that not all drow are evil.

True, and I actually like that character and those books. But in-game my thought is once you make the conceit that it could happen to one of the drow it all starts to unravel because it only makes sense that more than one out of thousands could have a similar capacity to change. Following that line of thought then it only makes sense to eventually have various cultures of drow across the alignment spectrum. And then suddenly the drow society and the underdark are not really the thing that they were created to be in the Forgotten Realms, and they are a major part of it.

It feels like its kind of an all or nothing thing. And I'm not saying that's the right or wrong way to do it, I can see merits to a more hardline approach and more open approach. Just thinking out loud about it.

But perhaps my question about Eilistraee in my response above will shed more light on this for me.

 

[haakon1]

And then suddenly the drow society and the underdark are not really the thing that they were created to be in the Forgotten Realms

Drow and the Underdark entered D&D via a Greyhawk series of adventures published 1978-1981.

As a Greyhawk fan who missed most of the 2e era, I do wonder about the origins of Drow and the Underdark in the Forgotten Realms. Anyone know the history on that?

 

[Voadam]

Since at least 2e FOR2 Drow of the Underdark in 1991 Forgotten Realms Drow have had Eilistraee a good Drow goddess of dance, beauty, and swords who advocates drow returning in peace to the surface and integrating there.

Since 1e Unearthed Arcana Drow could be rangers who in AD&D had to be good. Drizzt started out as a by the book 1e Drow character.

Even in the Gygax 1e D modules from the 70s you had NPC individuals like "Nilonim, a dissident Drow captured in Erelhei Cinlu where he led a band of rebels attempting to overthrow noble rule. He is of neutral alignment with a slight tendency towards good deeds."

Drow were overall majority tendency towards evil as much as high elves were majority tendency towards good which left a lot of room for variety among individuals and specific groups. That said Drow were sort of like Moorcock's Melniboneans in having a decadent cruel slave taking conquering magic heavy empire and culture and so were generally a scary bad guy group in the same way as the Red Wizards of Thay generally were. Most of their interaction with the surface world was slave taking night time raids and that is the general reputation. In the underdark they are dealing with mind flayers, duergar, and deep gnomes a lot.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Hopefully not opening a can of worms- but does everyone still running the realms run their drow and orcs in the traditional sense (monoculture and always bad enough to kill) or have you altered this in your world? Not a judgement statement, but it seems a lot of people have warmed up to not running races this way (either due to ethical implications or simply because it can become dull over time), while some have strong arguments for the traditional approach. It seems to me that altering these approaches has an impact on a setting like the Realms (and Greyhawk) more than it does on some others.

If you've changed your approach, how has it affected your version of the realms?

Since I run on a canon based on 4e, it isn’t really an issue.

The orcs have the Kingdom of Many Arrows, the Drow have many groups and factions. Both have individuals in most nations/regions and cosmopolitan cultures.

 

[haakon1]

Trying to read up on how FR got an Underdark, I didn’t find that specific answer, but I did find an interesting product history of how the Gray Box came to be/the origins of FR.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/16782/forgotten-realms-campaign-set-1e?affiliate_id=4782917&src=FRWx

 

[gban007]

What was changed? I know he and (I think) Bruenor reach a sort of truce or even start working together, right?


I am not well versed in her, can you tell me more?

Bruenor did reach a truce, but eventually by 5e the kingdom was destroyed by 1485 DR, with Bruenor helping end it as such. The tribe is still around, but no longer a kingdom alongside others. Not a retcon, if my wording previously suggested that, but a shift over time to remove the kingdom.
For Eilistraee, as Voadam mentions above she has been around quite some time. Is Chaotic Good Drow goddess who supports/ encourages Drow to return to the surface and live in peace.