Forgotten Rums....? Evil Overlords...?

[Tyros]

Nice first post, Mako!

It looks like I missed all the "fun" on this discussion, but in a way I'm kind of glad. This looks like a personal vendetta wrapped in a patronizing economics lesson.

I would have to say that in a strict product & profitability standpoint the "bean counting" does not give much leeway. If a company expects a product to generate x dollars in revenue, and the product fails to do so, the product is a failure to those who set that standard. That would be a nod to upper management.

D&D is a personal thing to everyone here, and as more developers are laid off from the d20 product line, it is painfully obvious that it was even more personal to the system's creators. From one person that works for a living to another, Mr. Reynolds should not be faulted for his frustration with the direction Wizards is going with D&D. I take everything I do at my job(s) personally; that's how I succeed. How many of the people that create these profitability standards actually play these games?

Unfortunately for everyone involved, whether the execs and decision makers for the fate of D&D play the game does not matter. They are there for their abilities as businessmen, their skills as merchants enable the company to continue. But at what ultimate price?

You can't make quality books that don't fall apart at the bindings with fancy lithographs and glossy color illustrations without expecting to turn over a certain amount of $$ for the people investing in the company.

Ultimately, it is WE the consumers that determine the direction of future products. WE the consumers buy what we feel is useful to help our gaming sessions every week. And the company will listen to what WE want.

I saw this morning a subtle urge on this web page to check out the Silver Marches. How many of you checked it out? How many of you are going to buy it? The laws of supply and demand can't possibly be hammered in any more than they are with this thread.

WOTC is trying to determine a formula for making RPG supplements that sell. We are the only people that determine their success.

I think I've been hypocritical enough in this post. Time will tell how many FR fans are out there and whether the writers of the FR product line can appease them enough to keep the line alive.

 

[evil_rmf]

There is one thing all of you are overlooking here and that is new players.

For D&D to survive there has to be an influx of new players and DMs and it is the Fluff that draws them, the flavor of the Realms and Greyhawk is what got many into gaming.

The Crunch is what scares and overwhelms many of them at first, just too many numbers and rules. For those of us who have been playing since the D&D blue book, we tend to forget that for some people every adventure is new teritory.

I agree with you there. I also agree with the previous post saying that there can't be much pure crunch left. If Wizards of the Toast spins off all the fluff, what else is there to do?

Now add this to the mix: The existing crunch is already too overwhelming to new players. Two years ago, you grabbed the Baker's Handbook, the Kitchen Master's Guide, and the Munchie Manual, and you were done. Now there are all of the books for the different types of pastries, etc... An incoming group of new players is going to look at that and say no way, too expensive and/or too complex. That will reduce the influx of new players. So what do they do? "Mmmmm." says the bean-counters, "Last time we re-invented the game, we gained new players, and brought back some who were out of the fold for years, so let's do it again!"

That scares me. Re-do the rules, get it back down to a few types of Donut Holes, and hit the big red reset button. Everyone will come running to buy the new core stuff because, we are all obsesive-compulsive geeks, or so the bean-counters may think.

Seriously, if WotT goes to core stuff only, the market will get saturated eventually, as everyone will have the core books, and not nearly everyone wil grab the more esoteric sets of crunch. They will have no choice but to invalidate the game and release a new edition, or sell the core off.

My personal experience with D&D dates back to pre-1E. I got out of the game a few weeks after looking over the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide. That was too much crunch, and there were nothing but crunch-happy rules-lawyers around for me to avoid being stuck with it. I tried, people wanted to roll on every 2 feet to see what flaver of mold we might have slipped on, and I said screw it, and quit. Completely missed 2E, and was glad of it when I saw all of the class handbooks, etc.. However, I came back with 3E. For my group, the jury is still out on 3E. We have been talking HarnMaster and HackMaster recently.

OK, enough of the analogies. In my opinion, prestige classes in particular, and some magic, *must* be setting-specific to work. I bet the FR specific prestige classes and spells work great in the FR setting. I play a homebrew setting. The stuff in the generic class books would require way too much re-working to work in my world, and really haven't given me enough good ideas to warrant buying them. So to me, it's just extra crunch I don't need. Anyone else feel that way?

 

[JoeGKushner]

To be honest, I'm of a mixed mind.

First off, I was very disappointed that the first region book was The Silver Marches. Done to death. To death and ressurected and put to death again. I'm sure there is a lot of new material in the book, but 1st ed and 2nd ed books, as well as Volo's Guides, say this puppy's had it. The only things worse would've been Dalelands or Waterdeep.

Having said that, I do have the book.

I don't play FR. I enjoy it because I may play it one day and a lot of the magic items, monsters, and characters act as catalyst for meta-thinking about fantasy settings.

One thing I'm curious about is the diminishing returns. Old FR and Known World books used to be numbered until someone figured out that people were intimidated by the rising numbers.

Second thing is the player vs. DM aspect. Lords is a DM book. Magic is a player and GM book. Silver Marches is a DM book. Crunchiness isn't a matter. If they come out with a book like Hall of Heroes and each character has a PrC, that might get players to buy it, but I'd bet it's going to be fans of the novels and GMs once again.

More criteria and intelligence needs to be utilized in determining the strong points of a product.

 

[kkoie]

Second thing is the player vs. DM aspect. Lords is a DM book. Magic is a player and GM book. Silver Marches is a DM book. Crunchiness isn't a matter. If they come out with a book like Hall of Heroes and each character has a PrC, that might get players to buy it, but I'd bet it's going to be fans of the novels and GMs once again.

More criteria and intelligence needs to be utilized in determining the strong points of a product.

Good point. I think thats why books with crunchiness sell so well, is because it contains stuff that make both Players and DMs happy. Where as books that are mostly cream, generally seem to contain mostly material that makes the DM happy.

I know that when Magic of Faerun came out, despite my campaign being a homebrew, 2/3rds of my players immediately purchased a copy. Where as Lords of Darkness was purchased by only 1 person in our group.

Personally, I have no problem with the way WoTC is handling things. All companies are like this. You have the exec's, you are rightly concerned with profit. And you have the little employees who are less concerned with profit than they are with their own little corner of the company.

If it wasn't for the "bean counters" Dungeons and Dragons would've tanked years ago and we'd probably be screwing around on a video game discussion board rather than an RPG discussion board.

K Koie

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

Oh it definitely makes business sense Anthony...I'll never argue that...I deal with this kind of stuff on a daily basis in both my main hobby,and my job...

That being said..what about those of us who want Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms cream? Because the OGL doesn't apply..we are screwed more or less..we either take the crunch or move on...

You say FR and GH cream don't sell..so you make crunch......eventually you won't be able to discern between GH crunch and FR crunch because crunch does not have any flavor...

On the other hand..each batch of cream has a different taste.some slight, some more pronounced...

Since you don't plan on making cream, and all the crunch is basically the same, why not sell off your cows?..cows can't make crunch, only cream...And since WOTC only wants to sell crunch..It seems like perfect business sense to me...Why keep the cream, and let it spoil in the corner?

Brand Identity...

Problem is now..you don't have the brand identity.....and so you manage to piss off all the folks who would have liked crunch and cream, or a few crunchy and one or two cream..and you'll never sell to those who want cream because there is none....

Hey get rid of the cream..sell crunch...that's your pergoative

but...

Eventually fans will realize that when you peddle crunch using the previous good reputation of the cream and don't deliver any of said cream, your brand identity is worthless.....it's crunch with a different logo..no different than company a, b, or c's crunch...and then your profit margins fall flat again...

You can't have FR crunch without the Cream..the two are symbiotic..same with Middle Earth or Glorantha or Barsaive...the cream is what makes the crunch taste good.....

JeffB

1)Apologies for posting such a long quote.
2)Not picking on anyone, this post was just perfect for my point.

The short and sweet answer is, make it up your self. Thats the DM's job, whether that is you or someone you play with. This may get me flamed, but I have never been a die hard fan of any world made by TSR, Wizards, or whoever. I have found that some of the best adventures and supplements have been the ones generic enough to fit in any world, any world being those of MY creation. I have the most fun as a DM by creating a unique world for my friends to explore.

Also, while the argument that it is nice to have a world fleshed when you can't do it yourself, or when the players do someting out of left field, is ABSOLUTLY valid, there has been so much FR stuff published over the years that I would argue that you can't explore it all. Between what has been published, all the generic stuff that could be dropped in, and all the fan based sites bound to pop up if FR does go under, despite the OGL, fans should have plenty of material to keep playing for a long time. Dragonlance certainly hasn't died. I doubt Chainmail will either, even though it hasn't been around as long.

That being said, I also worry about what this could mean for D&D and RPG's in general. But even if Wizards dissapeared overnight, the game would survive. D&D started as a flash in the pan idea that turned into a raging fire. Same with Magic TG. No matter how bad things get in the corprate side of things, creativity and originality will prevail. The players make the game. besides, nothing bad has happened yet, and probably won't.

Just a more positive note, which I think this thred needs badly.

 

[Renshai]

Kaptain_Kantrip wrote:

I think the Realms is more or less retarded, for lack of a better word. I have little interest in its people, places or history because they are not built on a solid, believable base (*cough* Elminster *cough*). Greyhawk is better, but not by much. Therefore, I buy crunchy books only and ignore the rest. Bean counters are right!!!

In fact, I am getting so burned out on d20's munchkin "video game" feel that I am considering switching over to a more realistic set of rules... HarnMaster. I've already dumped FR, GH and homebrews in favor of HarnWorld, because it is so much more realistic and authentic than anything WoTC or anyone else has ever done. I mean, light years ahead! It's not for kids and its not for high fantasy lovers looking to bash endless hordes of unbelievable monsters, gather the best and most powerful magic items or behave in an obnoxious and unrealistic manner. It's a setting that treats its readers like adults... adults with medieval history degrees, LOL. I love it anyway!

You like Harnworld? Great, that is the type of game you enjoy. You like your “fantasy” to be grounded in “reality”... ok? It certainly doesn’t give you any sort of moral high ground or the right to infer that people who enjoy the Forgotten Realms / Greyhawk are retarded/powergamers/munchkin.

If you don’t like d20 then why not refrain from posting here, in a place where people obviously enjoy it.

I swear, its people like you that make this place less and less tolerable.

Ren

 

[Allensh]

Re: Bean counters

1) You can lay off some elves and get the remaining elves to work harder. (lower your costs keep revenue the same)
2) You can increase your prices and piss off your Gnome customers. (keep costs the same, raise revenue - hopefully unless the Gnomes rebel)
3) You can cancel the FR line, lay off some elves take the revenue hit but make your margins. (lower revenue but lower costs more)
4) Or (and this is apparently the evil choice) you can try to find a way to make your FR line sell better. (raise revenue without raising prices and keep costs the same).
AV

Maybe Hasbro needs to realize that they bought into a niche industry, and that it might not get all that better. Trying to market D&D to the masses does not work. Instead, Hasbro should have left Wizards to make D&D the best it can be, since the people who were there know about one million times more about roleplaying than Hasbro ever thought of.

Hasbro's mistakes seem to be in putting too many eggs in the Pokemon basket at just about the time those eggs were breaking, and in somehow thinking they can make D&D sell like Monopoly or Magic. Ain't gonna happen. The problem isn't that it isn't profitable (as I read it) but that is isn't profitable enough.

Hasbro shold sell D&D to a smaller company that doesn't need it to sell unrealistcally high to consider it a success.

Allen

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Re: Bean counters

Self-edit: It could be perceived that my joke was a continuation of the "killed" political comments.

 

[Oracular Vision]

Re: Bean counters

Folks,

CLIP....

You need to increase your margins.
1) You can lay off some elves and get the remaining elves to work harder. (lower your costs keep revenue the same)

Goodbye Monte, Goodbye Sean, Goodbye Ryan...

2) You can increase your prices and piss off your Gnome customers. (keep costs the same, raise revenue - hopefully unless the Gnomes rebel)

Hello new "normal" core book prices, $10 more than before!

3) You can cancel the FR line, lay off some elves take the revenue hit but make your margins. (lower revenue but lower costs more)

Hello 1 year from now!

4) Or (and this is apparently the evil choice) you can try to find a way to make your FR line sell better. (raise revenue without raising prices and keep costs the same)

AV

Looks like a soviet-style 5-year plan! Lets run this baby into the ground, gouge the customer, lay off everyone, walk away from established products, and make cheesy munchkin books...gee, this is a great hobby!

I don't mean this TOO seriously AV...but it does seem odd that these steps are what has and may happen, and you have listed them all here...

 

[Imnop]

...Boo of Vile Darknesso...

__________________
"It's all fun and games until someone looses an eye."
-Vecna

"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!"
-Minsc



I couldn't resist. (And with my first post on these "new to me" boards too.)

Some random thoughts:

Would this story about the elves in Gameland make a good bed time story to tell my five year old niece, or would it scare her to much?

I know I need to replace my thought processing mechanisim, but... Does anyone else think Mr. Reynolds should have developed this story into a setting proposal, and submitted it to WotC's new campaign contest?

Glad to see Morrus got the fire extinguisher out. Hopefully it was in time to make sure this thread becomes a classic EN's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition thread. Whoops. I meant classic EN World thread.