Forked Thread: Can defenders do too good of a job? ...from Healing Potions seem odd

[frankthedm]

Can the defenders do too good a job of soaking up enemy attention? They are supposed to keep the enemy from mobbing the squishier party members, but can Defenders do their job too well, burning though most or all their surges, while the other party members still have nearly a full compliment of healing surges left?

Forked from: Healing Potions seem odd

Healing surges also are great ways to judge who is being a selfish bastard and who needs to be less kamikazi about getting into melee.

Everyone is supposed to be taking damage. If the wizard still has ALL his healing surges and the fighter and paladin are almost out, that is a sign the wizard has been avoiding enemy attention too well. Everyone is supposed to suffer some damage and some characters, like Infernal Warlocks, should take a masochistic approach about being hit. Also, some of the fault can lay with the DM. Allies only provide 2 points of cover for a reason, the foes should be trying to get at the back lines

So wait, a paladin that prevents the wizard from getting hit ISN'T performing their role? You're going to have to add that to the PHB errata then...

Every one has a role, but everyone is also a member of the same team of equals. The defender is not there to die so the caster does not get hurt. Everyone has HP, Healing Surges and an AC that monsters are supposed to be able to hit. The paladin will suffer the brunt of the attacks, but a few javalins and energy bolts should still be coming the mages way. This is why everyone has around 20+ HP even at first level.

 

[Branduil]

I have noticed that the defenders in our party burn through surges like mad.

It's the anti-3e. Instead of having to rest because the Wizard is out of spells, we have to rest because the Fighter is out of surges!

 

[keterys]

One of the jobs of the defender is to figure out how much they can take - it's a good tactical decision to let damage be spread around to a certain extent.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

This is actually a very non-MMO thing about 4e, for those keeping score. Defenders do their jobs here by controlling the battlefield as much as by "tanking".

(Most MMOs have provisions for near-unlimited healing to be applied on a single target, and tanks are not only harder to hit but also take far, far less damage than other classes. One big reason this is done this way in computer games is that they generally fail hard at the "battlefield control" aspect that 4e handles very well.)

 

[Oompa]

I would rather say that if an defender is using up all his surges, his allies arent doing there best..

Why?

If they did more damage, tactics, the fighter would get hit less and needed less rest..

So party members, support the defender and all shall go well..

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I would rather say that if an defender is using up all his surges, his allies arent doing there best..

Why?

If they did more damage, tactics, the fighter would get hit less and needed less rest..

So party members, support the defender and all shall go well..

That's not a reasonable point of view. It's entirely possible for the defender to use up all his healing surges whilst the rest of the party are doing extremely good damage and using what would seem to be good tactics. The defender needs to be not over-zealous, and the DM, even, needs to ensure he's not mindlessly attacking the Defender like this was WoW

 

[Regicide]

Defenders are supposed to have a role of defending. If their role was to shape the damage the party receives to optimize spreading out of healing surge use throughout the party the role would be called Combat Engineer. If they could even be successful at it, then it would also indicate that the monsters the party fights are being played as very stupid as they're ignoring one of the most basic strategies in combat, focus on killing an enemy so there are less of them instead of focusing on hurting everyone without taking any down.

 

[keterys]

I'd tend to assume that most combatants are concentrating on killing someone... like every character but the defender, and the defender is doing his job by grabbing the attacks from some, but not necessarily all, of those.

Leading every combat off with a sprint into the middle of the enemies and Come and Get It... may not lead to longevity. But splitting the enemies into manageable chunks and then grabbing your chunks? Definitely.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Certainly, though other characters may also be acting excessively risk-adverse for adventurers. In our first session the character that ended up with the fewest healing surges left at the end of the third combat of the day was a rogue. He got immobilized on the first round after the surprise round (he had crept up close to the enemies to take out an important target), and was stuck next to a soldier, targetted by an altillery, and mobbed by a few minions. I blew both my inspiring words on him, and fortunately we had a cleric to toss in a healing word, too, or he'd've dropped - and he had to use his second wind before he finally saved vs the imobalizing effect.

I think that was atypical, though.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I have noticed that the defenders in our party burn through surges like mad.

It's the anti-3e. Instead of having to rest because the Wizard is out of spells, we have to rest because the Fighter is out of surges!

Interesting.

Surely the other members of the party have the means to tempt an attack or two, if this becomes problematic.