Forked Thread: D&D needs to grow up (ala scifi in the mid-20th century?)

[Mallus]

Now that I'm done with some family medical issues, I can get back to this...

Warhol didn't create his art by stocking supermarket shelves. He did it by sculpting and painting and arranging.

I know... my attempt at being clever got the better of my point. I can't tell you how often that happens to me.

Actually we probably agree. I think we just have different ideas what an art form is.

I think that's right. BTW, I think of an "art form" as mainly rhetorical convenience.. I mean, as a way of grouping like modes of artistic expression, techniques, or even themes so as to facilitate critiquing them.

I think what you're saying is that RPGs can be good art, but usually they're not, so therefore they're not a "form."

What I'm saying is that I don't see how calling D&D an art form helps the discussion. It's distracting. Better to say that a specific instance of an RPG or RPG play is artistic, rather than attempt to frame the entire category as a mode of art.

For example, consider the game of chess used in work of art; the board and pieces in a sculpture, it's image in a painting, as a metaphor or plot point in a novel or play, whatever. Chess can be crucial to a pieces of art... but that doesn't make chess itself an art form. Or, rather, nothing is gained by categorizing chess as such. It illuminates nothing.

 

[Mallus]

I agree and disagree with you here, because you are saying different things at the same time.

Nope. I'm saying one thing, though perhaps not all that clearly...

I hear you saying that D&D isn't an art form but it can be art.

Exactly. There is statistically possible of D&D being art (but sane person would bet currency on the likelihood).

This is really no different than any artistic modality; music is an art form but is all music "artistic"? Or is it a matter of degree?

To me it's a matter of utility. Nothing is gained by discussing D&D as an art form in and of itself, distinct from other forms. Like I was saying to Rixle... games can be in art, they can be the subject of art, but there ain't much use of thinking of them as an art form.

This, I agree with, although would offer that it is hard to make a sharp distinction between good and bad art.

The more I think about, quality isn't the issue. It's not helpful to think of games as art forms primarily because their goals are different (hello worm can!).

Actually, one of the positive cultural developments that I've seen, especially with my own Gen X and later, is that everyone is an artist, or at least a self-fashioned artist.

Ah... sometimes a bad notion... just between you, me and Internet, I loathe this. The fact that anything can be art doesn't make every act of recorded (or ephemeral) creative expression into art, nor everyone an artist.

This is another conceit that doesn't help a discussion of art.

I see world design as a potential art form in itself, even divorced from RPGs or novels.

See, I loves me some world design. More to the point, and without any humility, let me say I'm good at it (though I'm even better when collaborating with like-minded folk). Quite good. The 2nd link in my .sig points to the new homebrew I'm working w/me friend John (and with maps from another pal, Steve. Credit where credit is due, and all).

If you've got the time, take a look at, then tell me if it's art. I have some opinions on that subject, and I should know, seeing as a good half of it came out of my brain (though I have it on good account that my brain in an inveterate thief).

 

[Umbran]

If you've got the time, take a look at, then tell me if it's art. I have some opinions on that subject, and I should know...

Oh, really? You think the artist knows best whether their own work qualifies as art?

 

[Mallus]

Oh, really? You think the artist knows best whether their own work qualifies as art?

In the case of me, why yes...

(more seriously though, I pointed to thread about the setting I --we-- are writing mainly because... well, mainly because I think it's good and I like to pimp it at every opportunity, but also because I can discuss the process and intent behind it).

 

[jmucchiello]

Actually, the artistic level of RPGs has been rising steadily for years now. RPG supplements of today are far more artistic than older ones. An RPG supplement is to playing RPGs what a play is to a stage performance. There is artistry in the written play. That artistry is that of the playwright. There is also artistry in the performed play, that of the actors and director (and perhaps musicians).

Every thread on these forums about "what music do you play at the table?" or how "Jenga beat up my dice" shows the result of artistic exploration in RPGs.

I think the mistake of this thread is equating the game session itself as the canvas or stage for RPG ART. A work of RPG ART is sum of all the character building, scenario building, world building, mountain dew consuming and die rolling. "Let me tell you about my halfling paladin" is like discussing brush strokes on a canvas.

Of course (tying this back to scifi in the 50s) Sturgeon's Revelation still applies. 90% of anything is crap, as are most halfling paladins (rimshot).