Forked Thread: Did 4e go far enough or to far?

[Najo]

Forked from: When did I stop being WotC's target audience?

Because the biggest problem with D&D is that it's D&D. The game has needed a fundamental structural change for many years now; 3E was a good start, and a single step in the right direction, by introducing actual skills, making most of the stats useful, tearing down most of the limits in race/class/etc choice, and a number of other things. Really, 4E didn't go nearly as far as it could have.

This post by WayneLigon got me wondering what everyone thinks about if 4e went far enough or not. What changes were to much? What changes should happen that didn't? How far could WOTC realistically have gone and still remain D&D?

 

[Serendipity]

Honestly, the only change I really felt the need for was to ignore the last few splat books. (Sp. complete mage and onward)
Having said that, 3.x and 4e are such different games that comparing them is very much, to borrow an old cliche, like apples and oranges - each has their strengths and weaknesses. To wit, I can't really see 4e as "fixing" the game to me as such - it was doing just fine, minus a few books.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

I think it went way to far, the feel is gone, it's soul missing. I may get flamed but so be it. when I look at 4e I see a tactical mini game designed to push mini's. Gone is the history the fell, gone are d&d wizards replaces with the same class cookie cut out with fluff changes. Gone are core classes and races to be replace with super neto oh look I can play a dragon with boobs. They have robbed names from critters to give to brand new things. Thats totally gonna screw up and players I bring in from that game who think they know what going one since well it called D&D and the race has the same name and all. With that I am done



It may be a fine game but that game is not D&D.

 

[xechnao]

Forked from: When did I stop being WotC's target audience?



This post by WayneLigon got me wondering what everyone thinks about if 4e went far enough or not. What changes were to much? What changes should happen that didn't? How far could WOTC realistically have gone and still remain D&D?

It is more complicated than this. D&D is rather a topology than just an interval running on a single direction. For example some people may think that D&D went too far in some directions but not far enough in others.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Hmm... For the most part I feel that 4e hit is right dab in the sweet spot. It has enough similarities that it continues the D&D line, but enough changed so that it may be THE D&D for another group of people (one of I believe best benefits of edition changes).

For any personal things I find went to far or not far enough...

Not Far Enough: Alignment should simply be out of the picture all-together. Perhaps if there needs to be something to follow suit a Morality-System, just something not so archaic.

Too Far: Very, very minor but the exclusion of firearms all-together in the corebooks. They had only very limited space before but they were there.

One or The Other: The overabundance of elements in both creatures and magic. I can't really say what editions has more of this, so it could be either one. (But this is more part of a private little brain-rant I have had lately )

This is what pops into my head right now. But, probably could think of some other very minor quibbles later on (that don't break the barrier of it being to the point of not being D&D anymore).

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I think what D&D really should've done was lose the "D&D" part in it's name. There's a large number of people who don't think 4e is D&D. I'm not even trying to criticize the game - hell, I think I personally would enjoy it a hell of a lot more if there wasn't that part of my brain constantly jabbing me, reminding me that it's supposed to be D&D, and that I don't think it really is.

...Oh god, I just opened the floodgates, didn't I?

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

If I didn't , you didn't your good

 

[ProfessorCirno]

To sort of pt my thoughts more together-ish...

I think 4e can be a very fun game, and it has the potential to be even MORE fun. But I think that - oddly enough - the D&Disms are holding it back. Look at alignment. 4e very clearly wasn't built to use alignment, but it got shoved in anyways in it's current form that looks like buttocks. Some of the classes - I'm looking at you rogue - look like they started development as one thing but somehow got "Oh wait, thief" bent into them. I have no problem with many of the monsters being drastically different, but I think they'd all work so much better if they DIDN'T have previous D&D history breathing down the back of it's neck.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I have mixed feelings. On one hand, I am supposed to flame Hunter. On the other hand, Professor Crino has opened the floodgates - what is it now, fire or water?

Being unable to decide on this matter, I think they went in the right direction in many aspects, but they still "missed" a few spots.
My primary concern is - where are the purely "narrative/story-telling" powers?
Torg had stuff like the subplot cards, Changeling has its convictions and stuff like that - where is the 4E equivalent?
I think it was not just an oversight - they deemed this part was not essential to the D&D Core Experience, and they might be correct.
But I am not a slave to the D&D "Core", regardless how you define it. The "Core" for me is the experience at the game table, and the joy and entertainment it brings to me.
The reason I like these powers so much is because I think they add to the experience at the game table. Oh, and of course nobody less people would complain about D&D 4 not being an RPG.

Alignment - well, I could have gone without it. I can't even say which I like more or less. I suppose the 4e model removes a few common issues I had with the law & chaos vs good & evil, but did I need the new one?

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

I have mixed feelings. On one hand, I am supposed to flame Hunter. On the other hand, Professor Crino has opened the floodgates - what is it now, fire or water?

In case like this I would subject lighting. It hurts and can burn like fire yet works well even if water.


Yep go lighting