Forked Thread: DMs - No one cares how long you worked (was: Rant -- GM Control...)

[3catcircus]

I primarily DM, so I somewhat take it personally when the players don't have a good time. That being said, the *only* thing that drives me crazy (and it has happened 3 times now - with the same bunch of players) is as follows:

1. We start a campaign. They insist high-level, I insist 1st level (and If I could, I'd do a diaglo and make them roll 3d6, in order).
2. We compromise and start around 4th-5th level.
3. We play once a week for a few months.
4. They advance a few levels (say, round 4 or so) and the campaign has progressed - plot hooks are set, backstories established, etc.
5. "Can we stop this campaign and just play at high level - 18th or so?"

 

[Vegepygmy]

However - and here's the crux - if you are able to find some nice, polite way to communicate to your grandma that you would actually prefer a nice set of pants, and she keeps buying you sweaters anyway, it does make you wonder whether your grandma is really listening to you, and whether she's paying any attention at all to what you're saying (but you'd still love her and do the polite thing, regardless).

Of course, this is not a perfect analogy since your grandma probably has no emotional investment in continuing to give you sweaters.

You're right. We can improve the analogy by changing the sweaters from something Grandma buys for you to something she creates for you (just like a DM creates a campaign).

So now we have Grandma, who spent hours crocheting (or whatever it is you do to make a sweater) a sweater for you, and she's proud of her work, and it makes her heart swell with pride to think of you wearing this thing she made just for you...and you politely communicate to her that you'd prefer a nice pair of pants.

I don't know about you, but that's not how I roll. And I can guarantee that if I had ever done something like that to my Grandma in front of my Dad, he'd have taken me outside and politely drop-kicked me into the neighbor's yard.

Still, I see nothing wrong with at least telling the DM what sort of games you would prefer him to run, and it is possible to do so without being rude. If you can work things out, fine. Otherwise, as suggested, the DM would be better off trying to find other players who do appreciate the work he's put into running the game.

I don't disagree with any of that. The key is...you have that discussion before you sit down to play, and you either accept whatever terms the DM is willing to offer or you reject them. You don't accept the invitation to play and then whine about how you'd rather play a different kind of game.

Just like when you're invited to a backyard barbecue, it's fine to say: "No, thanks. I'm more of a gourmet food kind of guy." But it's not okay to accept the invitation, show up at the barbecue, and then talk about how much you prefer gourmet food to what's being served.

 

[Similkameen]

The crux of this thread

I primarily DM, so I somewhat take it personally when the players don't have a good time. That being said, the *only* thing that drives me crazy (and it has happened 3 times now - with the same bunch of players) is as follows:

1. We start a campaign. They insist high-level, I insist 1st level (and If I could, I'd do a diaglo and make them roll 3d6, in order).
2. We compromise and start around 4th-5th level.
3. We play once a week for a few months.
4. They advance a few levels (say, round 4 or so) and the campaign has progressed - plot hooks are set, backstories established, etc.
5. "Can we stop this campaign and just play at high level - 18th or so?"

I have been reading these threads with interest, some very helpful insights and perhaps some DM navel gazing going on.

I have always taken the approach of finding out what the players want (character, roles, background, what makes the game fun for them), and then build a game that addresses what each of them has identified. So a hack and slash isn't going to have much plot line, folk interested in a story line have the time to create their own history and develop their environment, and I'm having a lot of fun running an investigative game now as the players are happy to play it.

It seems to me what your players are saying pretty clearly is they want to play a high level game, you don't. So you haven't been. It doesn't change what they want though, and they keep telling you. Not sure you are hearing them.

I'm hearing from these threads that a good DM is open and flexible, and has final say and uses it.

If you are unable to set up a high level game (lots of work, and different - nothing like having the party neatly teleport in and out past the multi-level dungeon you just built), you should probably have a talk about it. One option is to try running them a few encounters at that level - they get the fun of building the high level characters, you can set the limits you need to, and there is no long term commitment on your part, you can see what it is about. You're running isolated encounters. Option 2, is to have someone else run the game at a high level.

I personally don't really enjoy playing characters at the high levels. But I am sure there is all sorts of helpful advice you can get on this site or elsewhere to assist you.

Hope this is constructive, not counter productive.

 

[Cadfan]

The grandma analogy only goes so far. Sorry, DMs of the world- you ain't my grandma. You don't get grandma treatment.

 

[billd91]

The grandma analogy only goes so far. Sorry, DMs of the world- you ain't my grandma. You don't get grandma treatment.

What about friends? Do their efforts get appreciated?

 

[Vegepygmy]

The grandma analogy only goes so far. Sorry, DMs of the world- you ain't my grandma. You don't get grandma treatment.

Then you don't get a "sweater."

 

[Cadfan]

What about friends? Do their efforts get appreciated?

I'll wear grandma's nasty sweater, at least as long as she's watching. And I'll pretend I love it.

You aren't grandma. Grandma rules don't apply.

 

[Reynard]

I primarily DM, so I somewhat take it personally when the players don't have a good time. That being said, the *only* thing that drives me crazy (and it has happened 3 times now - with the same bunch of players) is as follows:

1. We start a campaign. They insist high-level, I insist 1st level (and If I could, I'd do a diaglo and make them roll 3d6, in order).
2. We compromise and start around 4th-5th level.
3. We play once a week for a few months.
4. They advance a few levels (say, round 4 or so) and the campaign has progressed - plot hooks are set, backstories established, etc.
5. "Can we stop this campaign and just play at high level - 18th or so?"

This one is pretty simple -- they want to play at high level. If you don't want to run a high level game, then don't DM for them. It sucks, but I have been in situations where games I wanted to run and games some of the players wanted to play were not compatible. So I don't run games for them anymore.

 

[Storminator]

You're right. We can improve the analogy by changing the sweaters from something Grandma buys for you to something she creates for you (just like a DM creates a campaign).

So now we have Grandma, who spent hours crocheting (or whatever it is you do to make a sweater) a sweater for you, and she's proud of her work, and it makes her heart swell with pride to think of you wearing this thing she made just for you...and you politely communicate to her that you'd prefer a nice pair of pants.

I don't know about you, but that's not how I roll. And I can guarantee that if I had ever done something like that to my Grandma in front of my Dad, he'd have taken me outside and politely drop-kicked me into the neighbor's yard.

Change "Grandma" to "guy I met at the Yarn Barn." Does everything else still follow?

PS

 

[Storminator]

What about friends? Do their efforts get appreciated?

In this case are you appreciating the work, or the friendship?

Naturally if your friends are important, you will have respect for their limited time and the fact that they spent it on you. But that's a reflection of the friendship, not the game. Lots of us only play with friends, so the issues are convolved.

PS