Forked Thread: I hate game balance! (How elves wrecked the wizard and game balance)

[Lanefan]

I've been playing/running 1e or a variant for many a year, and I've seen both Human and Elven (and part-Elven) single-class wizards do just fine. I've also seen them get squashed like bugs, just like anyone else. Our games tend to not get past about 10th-level or so, but we take a long time getting there; I've run the numbers on mortality by class in our games and Wizards are about average.

In 3e, the best character I had was a straight-up Wizard(Illusionist, no Evoking); lasted 7 years, got to 11th.

Lanefan

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

How did you and your friends keep your single class wizards alive? What tactics did you pull?

People often play single-class humans in my games (magic users being quite popular), so I'll answer, too.

At low-levels, teamwork is important. I've had groups even assign a particular Fighting Man as a "bodyguard" for a specific low-level Magic User. Also, I think modern D&D players tend to forget how common large parties, and henchmen and hirelings were in older editions (at least in my games). The combat rules were "lighter," and large parties and large battles go pretty quick. My players usually have a few men-at-arms and linkboys along with the group. Again, this allows "bodyguards" for the Magic Users, and also lets the group employ more complex tactical formations than a smaller party would.

Avoiding melee is also paramount for a Magic User. This means it's almost always best for the group to enter into combat on the groups's terms. Proper scouting is key, here. So are other options like running, spiking doors shut (or using hold portal, and dropping food or treasure to delay or deter pursuit.

I DM'd a single class human Magic User as a solo PC, a few years back. She was high Cha, and used that to her advantage, building a group of loyal NPC men-at-arms and (eventually) henchmen around her. It worked out great.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Hmm, this thread makes me want to introduce gestalts to 4.0... those old editions really were a different age. I wish I could find games that still played second edition.

How close did Baldur Gate simulate second edition rules?

I would have allowed everyone to be gestalt. Why not?
After 30 years of my fighter wishing to heck he had a rogue handy, or my rogue wishing he had a fighter handy, or ... you know ... after 30 years of that, it would be nice to have a semi-self-reliant character.
The game was built to create non self-reliant characters. Gestalt changed that, gave characters back that multiclass flexibility.

Heh. A gestalt cleric/wizard / fighter/rogue.
2 classes, takes 2,000 experience points to make 2nd level. Worth the trouble, because he's a Jack Of All Trades.
That way, when the whole rest of the party is fried, he might actually survive for 10 more rounds ...

And hey, who says there isn't some school that teaches it all?
The School of Wee Jas teaches wizards, and creates priests of Wee Jas. While they're at it, they martially train the student, and teach the dirty arts of streetfighting and sneak attacks, and other insundry things.
It might take a few extra *years* to become 1st level, but then your life expectancy is at least a few days longer after they kick you out to fend for yourself!

But this time, everyone can do it. No more Elves Only Allowed.

And, elves live longer than humans, and this gives them the advantage?
THIS time, we make longevity spells available (ala Monte Cook's Unearthed Arcana) so that human wizards and clerics can live a thousand years also, if they try.
So that negates the elven advantage, and better yet, humans reproduce quickly and elves don't, so humans once more rule the world! Queen Amlaruil, eat your heart out!

EDIT: I know little or nothing on Baldur's Gate. My regrets. Someone else will have to answer your question on that.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

My experience was similar in a number of ways.

One thing I remember seeing though: The players who choose human PCs generally put more thought into their actions than the players with elf PCs. So, those human PCs—in my group—often were more effective than the elf PCs despite the elves’ mechanical advantages.

I do it myself. When I make my PC choices more on mechanics, I tend to be lazier in play.

Of course, in my favorite edition—B/X classic D&D—elves require more XP to level and have a level cap (by the book). Combined with the fact that (by the book) elves can’t be clerics or thieves or single-classed, that tends to keep the elves in balance.

Well, again, it's a matter of following the RAW. You do, and have done so.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

He created level limits. Very severe at first, as noted for OD&D (6 for fighter, 8 for wizard.)

Level 4 for Fighting Man, actually.

Although remember that in Chainmail and OD&D, a level 4 Fighting Man is a "Hero," and a level 8 Fighting Man is a "Superhero" (the rules called them "Conan types"). So the best Elven fighters were still of "heroic" stature, the equal of four men in battle; they just didn't push the limits like humans could. They didn't burn as hotly and brightly as human "stars." I view the demihumans as kind of scratching their heads in wonder (and maybe disgust or envy), seeing these primitive, short-lived humans blazing their trails across the world.

Incidentally, I agree that demihumans (and elves in particular) were a common player choice in my early days of gaming. As we got older, though, that gradually fell away. Humans are the most popular race for PCs in my games, these days (and since I play OD&D, that generally means single-class, although dual-class is a possibility). Of course, these days I have a much better grasp of my "world concept" and of the "why/behind-the-curtain" aspects of the game. Things I dismissed in my youth as stupid rules are now embraced. I guess my perspective has changed.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I've been playing/running 1e or a variant for many a year, and I've seen both Human and Elven (and part-Elven) single-class wizards do just fine. I've also seen them get squashed like bugs, just like anyone else. Our games tend to not get past about 10th-level or so, but we take a long time getting there; I've run the numbers on mortality by class in our games and Wizards are about average.

In 3e, the best character I had was a straight-up Wizard(Illusionist, no Evoking); lasted 7 years, got to 11th.

Lanefan

My experience was that wizards started to become seriously nasty when they reached 12th level, and gained access to all those nifty 6th level spells.
We had Chromatic Orb (at 12th level, an Autokill), Death Spell, Disintegrate, Reverse Gravity, and some other arcane goodness.
It got better, of course, but it was at 12th level that you seriously thought twice about messing with the wizard.

Illusions are another matter. You are thinking of the old Phantasmal Force/Improved Phantasmal Force/Spectral Force/Advanced Illusion/Programmed Illusion/Permanent Illusion chain?
Those spells rocked. They also tended to get out of hand, especially in 1E, even by *my* standards (and that is really saying something ... but when I see an adult DRAGON killed by a 1st level Phantasmal Force, then Houston, We Have a Problem.)
In 2E, they introduced some controls on the spells, with nasty In Game consequences. Want to duplicate being burned to death? You only need to be fireballed in Illusion School, and fail your save. (Illusion School, must have been an interesting experience for young lads and lasses ...)

I only saw one demihuman, in my entire gaming career, choose to go single class. But that's just me. I suppose others did it too.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Well, again, it's a matter of following the RAW. You do, and have done so.

One thing I enjoy doing is taking rules that seem weird, or odd, or counterintuitive and exploring how they could work. Robert does the same, I think. That is, take a rule that seems senseless or broken, and think about how it could make sense. Maybe you're looking at the "broken" rule in a way that the designers didn't.

The Elf rule, above is one of those. Level limits are another. Another is the OD&D approach to magic swords.

Taking this approach with the older editions has given me a much greater appreciation for them. Of course, it doesn't mean that all the old rules were well-considered, perfect jewels. But understanding them (and their history) does make a big difference, I think. And it helps you house-rule in ways that are congruent with the system as a whole.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

People often play single-class humans in my games (magic users being quite popular), so I'll answer, too.

At low-levels, teamwork is important. I've had groups even assign a particular Fighting Man as a "bodyguard" for a specific low-level Magic User. Also, I think modern D&D players tend to forget how common large parties, and henchmen and hirelings were in older editions (at least in my games). The combat rules were "lighter," and large parties and large battles go pretty quick. My players usually have a few men-at-arms and linkboys along with the group. Again, this allows "bodyguards" for the Magic Users, and also lets the group employ more complex tactical formations than a smaller party would.

Avoiding melee is also paramount for a Magic User. This means it's almost always best for the group to enter into combat on the groups's terms. Proper scouting is key, here. So are other options like running, spiking doors shut (or using hold portal, and dropping food or treasure to delay or deter pursuit.

I DM'd a single class human Magic User as a solo PC, a few years back. She was high Cha, and used that to her advantage, building a group of loyal NPC men-at-arms and (eventually) henchmen around her. It worked out great.

(chuckles)

I remember the poor sacrificial lamb ... err, henchman. Yeah, I remember them. You agree to give them a fair share of the treasure, agree to all sorts of nice terms ... and make sure they are in front when the monsters appear (well, ok, only nasty evil PCs do that, right? Right? ..... )

Yeah, teamwork was crucial. Fighters protected the wizards, wizards acted as artillery and buffs (mostly artillery, back then.)
Melee combat was suicide for a magic-user back then (still is, I think ...) Actually, it would be more appropriate to say that the magic-user really couldn't melee (THAC0 20 at 5th level) and could basically stand there, while the monster chopped her down (only 13 hit points at 5th level, a mighty 23 hit points with 16 Con.)

So yeah, teamwork was crucial. With good players, we had teamwork.
Then we had the clowns. I remember that too:

Fighters: We charge the monsters in the big open room!
Cleric: I charge the monsters in the big open room!
Rogue: I hide.
Wizard: Uh, guys. Uh ... they are coming around you at me. Uh, guys ... uh, is anyone paying attention to anything I say? No ...
Fighters: We CHOP em!
Cleric: I BASH em!
Rogue: I steal the party treasure while they're not looking.
Everyone (metagaming) No you don't!
Wizard: Urk! (dies, as 4 monsters stab her simultaneously.)
Rest of Party: Who needed the wizard anyways? We can kill the monsters! We'll kill the thief first, though.

You know that Table, I'll bet. You, and me, and the rest of us, have had the misfortune of sitting at that Table. (rueful look) Indeed, we have.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I remember the poor sacrificial lamb ... err, henchman. Yeah, I remember them. You agree to give them a fair share of the treasure, agree to all sorts of nice terms ... and make sure they are in front when the monsters appear (well, ok, only nasty evil PCs do that, right? Right? ..... )

Right. And an experienced DM won't let the "redshirt, sacrificial lamb" thing go on for very long. Hirelings and henchmen will turn on PCs that do that kind of thing, perhaps refusing, or perhaps just disappearing in the night with the PC's magic sword (or whatever).

Melee combat was suicide for a magic-user back then (still is, I think ...)

Yeah. My game uses the combat sequence derived from Swords & Spells and Chainmail; a magic user that gets engaged in melee is screwed -- he can't even cast spells if an enemy has engaged him, and loses a spell he started if he gets engaged (not hit, but engaged) before it is finished.

So yeah, teamwork was crucial. With good players, we had teamwork.
Then we had the clowns.

Sure. (Of course, clowns and poor players (or a poor DM) will muck up any system.) I've been there and done that. Fortunately, we grew out of it.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(wry look)

Remember the 1E monk? Remember how difficult he was to play? (Remember how many players said he was useless?)

The low level wizard was worse, as we know. Fire your magic missile, hide the rest of the day (and hope you get enough sleep the next night to actually memorize something.)
Sleep was a neat spell, commonly memorized. Burning oil worked for the wizard as a 1st Level Character Ultimate Weapon, just as it did for others.

But still, how can she (the young lady who is a human wizard) compete against that elven girl, who is a wizard and also a fighter?
The elven girl, fighter/magic-user, has AC 7 until she casts her spells, then dons her armor and is AC 2. She has 12 hit points. She wields a sword in either hand (back then, it was easier to do that, especially with high dexterity.)

Sorry, but the bladesinger (or precursor, in this case) wins every time.

And so, when she reaches levels 14/14, she casts Nymph's Aura, and everyone looking at her (no distance limit, see FOR5 Elves of Evermeet) saves or dies (nice way to take out half the Morgul Host on round 1 ...)
And she has the powers of a 14th level fighter as well.

Humans, eat your hearts out. Or, rather, give your hearts in loyalty to the elves, because they are your new rulers (look on the bright side, it could be worse: the illithid could be your new rulers. Aren't you glad there are elves around to protect weakling humans? )

So, when all the complaining about broken wizards reached my ears, I remembered all those fighter/mages, and how they took off the level limits, and multiclass characters advanced almost as fast as single class characters, and ... well, you have a Gaggle of Frolicking Elves with Attitude Problems Towards Humans And Game Balance.

(If you think Nymph's Aura, 7th level, described above, is a broken spell, that's nothing. I can show you some truly *broken* spells. If only you knew. Even the 1E Shapechange can't compare with what I could show you.)