Forked Thread: I hate game balance! (How elves wrecked the wizard and game balance)

JRRNeiklot

First Post
The only thing I think may make 1e fighter/mages overpowered (ignoring level limits) is the fact that they can wear armor and still cast spells. A fighter/mage will always be one to two levels below a true mage, which can really hurt when the mage is casting fireball and you're still casting melf's acid arrow. Or he's casting cone of cold and you're just getting a 5d6 fireball. Sure, he can use a sword, but he has crappy hit points, and probably doesn't do very much damage unless he was really lucky rolling stats. It takes a good roll to even want to play a fighter/mage. 14, 17, 10, 15, 14, 11 for instance, would make a pretty good magic user, but a crappy fighter/mage.
 

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Edena_of_Neith

First Post
(humor)

True, true. But our elven wizard is only using fighter, as a means to an end! Hehe.
She will use the fighter class to breeze through the lower levels, where being a wizard is hard.

Then, she (I *always* refer to wizards as *she*) will gain the great powers of a high level wizard, and shape everything to her will!

(grins evilly)

If I were playing a person with the mentality of a wizard, and I could get away with having the advantages of a fighter while learning to be (an actually effective) wizard (at least 5th level, but 9th level is so much better) then I would!
Anything goes, in the World of Wizardry. Just as with the Rogue, any dirty trick is in the cards. Because that's how I work. That's how I survive, and win, and triumph, and become mighty and powerful and wealthy and immortal and whatever else I want to be or have in life!

So yeah, that cute elven girl - she is cute, and she has an attitude, and that attitude will see some serious butt kicking. It will be arrows and swords and magic missiles, then arrows and swords and fireballs, then arrows and swords and cloudkill, then bigtime arrows and swords and death spell!

Wizards are ruthless. Ambitious. Talented, resourceful, and clever. And, out to bend and alter all and everything to their liking.
With the power of being fighters to aid them, give them a free hand up to high level, they will do just that!

More seriously, yes, though. If I were playing a young lady wizard, she would gladly take rogue abilities, and wouldn't hesitate to backstab or sneak attack, or use poison, or do whatever other nefarious things required to win.
Would she view that as evil? Not at all. Using nefarious means to win, and keeping her friends alive (in the party) is a good thing! Not being nefarious and nasty and wicked and ruthless and altering Everything to Her Needs, THAT is true evil, because it is letting herself down and her friends down.

And I do remember elves being able to be fighter/wizard/rogues, so I could create just such a character ...
 

JRRNeiklot

First Post
I wouldn't multiclass just for an advantage at low levels just to get screwed at high levels, I'd suffer through the low levels, but ymmv. Now, dual class mages, that's a different story, but again that takes mad stats. DMS with liberal stat generation methods really skew the game balance of multiclass characters imo.
 

Edena_of_Neith

First Post
Being a wizard was much like being a rogue, but even more so.

A rogue believed in using the system, in any ruthless way possible, to obtain her ends.
A wizard believed in using that system and exploiting it, and ultimately altering the system itself, and exploiting the altered system, in order to achieve her ends.
This is the antithesis of balance in a wargaming sense (in such games as RISK, Axis and Allies, or Star Fleet Battles.) But it was a core principle of the wizard.

Here are examples.

If the wizard was alone in the world, convincing a fighter to accompany her and act as bodyguard, while she protected him, and they both mutually benefitted, was a good case of working within the system. (And both characters benefited.)

If the wizard could use the protection of the fighter to throw a Fireball, which destroyed the enemy, and this was possible because he was protecting her from that enemy, it was a classic case of using the system, working within the system to win. And very commonly done.

If the wizard threw the Fly spell upon herself and her fighter friend, this was a low level case of altering the system. The chasm in front of them, previously impassable, was now easy to cross. Reality was altered.
Flight made possible aerial combat, whereas in most cases the foe was still grounded, and it conveyed a tremendous advantage if the fighter was an expert bowman and skilled at aerial combat. This also was an example of altering the system, and taking advantage of the new reality. And this was reasonably common as well (and many monsters, of course, used this tactic.)

Now, with Protection from Normal Weapons (2nd level, FOR4 Red Wizards of Thay) the wizard could alter reality in a major way, enabling her fighter friend to overturn major combat realities.
Add in Protection from Magical Weapons (3rd level, FOR4 Dreams of the Red Wizards) and the fighter was now living in a whole new world.
Add in Stoneskin, and the fighter was in a completely different reality. His altered reality translated into an altered, favored reality for the wizard.

Even the 1st level Regenerate spell (Polyhedron #18, I believe) overturned the fundamental realities of the game.

We all know about Hold Person. A good way to end a combat before it started, for the other side, or for the party. Nothing like being TPKed on round 1, because the enemy wizard (or cleric) won initiative (your saves were lousy at low levels, so failed saves were likely.)

At 12th level, to make a long story short, the wizard killed you. Period. No appeal if she successfully hit.
Why? Chromatic Orb. Autokill. (If we are talking about a fighter/wizard, she would have a really good THAC0 for purposes of hitting you with the thing, too.)
Not that a clever wizard wouldn't find Autokill spells a lot sooner than 12th level. Call it an Arms Race: Who can find the Autokill spell first? The answer? The wizards of Waterdeep, with their 2nd level Gemidans' Paralytic Missile.
Autokill spells overthrew reality and replaced it with one out of the Wild West: the first person to draw and fire, won.

Now, add in Haste. :)
Bonus to initiative, each and every round in the old versions. Combine that with Improved Initiative (they stacked in 3.0) and anything else you could find (like Displacement) to ensure you got to fire first.

Ok, so you are now saying: these are all ways used to overthrow game balance, and they nerfed those in 3.5, and eliminated them since.
But, remember that - in the case of the wizard - this kind of play was necessary. Not just encouraged, but necessary. It was a fundamental mindset of the class.
No wizard who thought within the system, stood much of a chance. How could she, if the DM threw more than one combat at the party per day? After that first combat, the party was exhausted, low on spells and hit points (thus, the 15 minute day everyone is talking so much about ...)

I have repeatedly pointed out that in books of fantasy and films, there is no such thing as a 15 minute day (unless it is a climatic showdown that ends the scenario.) The enemy doesn't rest because the party is exhausted. And there are plenty of monsters fresh and at full spells and hit points, ready to come to kill the weakened party.

In a scenario like that, thinking outside of the box is the only means of survival. Consider the wizard, with few hit points and few spells to start with, running out very quick, very subject to this effect. She MUST think outside of the box if she is to survive, and to aid her friends in survival.
She must change the reality as much as possible, create the most favorable reality for her side, in addition to manipulating events within the present reality.

Now, one can always go with the 15 minute day. Or not throw adversary at the party while they are weakened. Or, perhaps, find ways to enable the party to get back on their feet quickly.
But if the party is under continuous assault, they will wither under it unless someone figures out how to modify the system in the party's favor.

In short, wizards must cheat (metaphorically, not literally.) They cheat, and by cheating they win. If they don't cheat, they die. And their friends die. Or, that is how it would be, in any scenario where the enemy assault was continuous, and no recourse existed for altering the reality of the situation (even a simple Rope Trick does wonders, to alleviate party problems ...)

That is how it was, and that is how it will still be, in 4E or any other rp game and regardless of other considerations. If you throw enough firepower at the party, period, they will be beaten, given a fixed reality and linear situation.
Only by altering the system can a party with limited resources beat a vastly superior force. And that requires cleverness, luck, ruthlessness, and resources - the kind of resources one would find in magic.

The good wizard says: cheaters sometimes win. So, how can I cheat?

(Another analogy is the game of Knightmare Chess. Ever hear of it? Regular chess, but you hold a hand of cards, and you can alter the rules and thus reality of the game by playing those cards. There can be 2 kings on your side at once. Your king can get out of checkmate free. Your king can even (grimaces, for it happened to me) change sides (in which case you lose unless you have a second king.) As for queens? ... there are cards that rotate the board. Rotate it twice, and you might just have 4 or 5 white queens and 4 or 5 black queens at once running around.)
If Knightmare Chess is a game In Real Life, a metaphorical equivalent is the wizard's life In Game. She must play Knightmare Chess, has played Knightmare Chess, all her life.
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Hey there. Cheers to yourself, Plane Sailing. A pleasure to meet you. :)

I don't know what to say. Except a big cheer to yourself and those of you who played straight class wizards, considering how hard the class was to play.
I mean, nothing like ... d4 for hit points, worst THAC0 (what THAC0, really!), no armor, no weapons, a handful of spells, a spellbook all too likely to go boom, and a magical item or two. Gads. I remember ... it was no picnic (and of course, NPCs would *never* cooperate with you trying to gain spells, ala the 1E DMG ... lol ...)

Now, if it was the Tomb of Horrors, it didn't matter whether you played the fighter or the wizard. The rule there was Everyone Died! :D
But in other games, it was a real pain playing a low level wizard. I tried several times, but to no avail. They all died. Only my multiclass characters made it (which shows, I was a lousy wizard player ... and I am willing to admit it ...)

How did you and your friends keep your single class wizards alive? What tactics did you pull? You've got my curiosity up, bigtime!

Essentially the key thing for low level wizards was to keep out of combat, and be prepared to come up with wacky off-the-cuff uses for spells to get you out of a tight corner.*

Most of my wizards started in OD&D+Greyhawk, where despite the 1d4 HD had a better time of things - the Sleep spell was awesome in those days, and Charm Person was pretty buff too. My early games were often in large parties where until the wizard had cast his spell he was the big boss (because nobody wanted to be on the recieving end of it) but after he had cast it he was a dogsbody!

Happily I soon got a smaller group together who were better at playing together :)

One of the things that people often missed about wizards is that although they needed more xps than anyone else to reach 2nd level, there was a dip in their chart at mid levels (I forget the exact levels), but from something like 7th to 9th a wizard needed less xp than a fighting man!

5th level was the key level to reach, as fireball was a serious spell in those days (sadly for us old-timers it has been quenched more and more with each edition :.-( ) and after that things started looking up for the wizard. Once 9th level and the first 5th level spells became available, things started getting seriously cool.


*one of the last examples I can remember during late 1e. My 4th level wizard had taken the animal handling non-weapon proficiency, and availed himself of a couple of wardogs. Deep in the dungeon, during a big fight, an enemy monk saw me and decided to take me out. He charged and made a flying drop kick, and I shouted out "featherfall!". His leap turned into a slow drift and I threw my net over him and sic'd the dogs on him.

Anyhow, wizard survival 101 in those days was mostly down to excellent situational awareness; knowing when to hold em and when to fold em, so to speak ;)

Cheers
 

Tarek

Explorer
I'd like to point out something important about the multi-classed fighter/magic-user/thief/whatever in 1st edition.

Experience earned was split equally between the classes.

This is important. It means that instead of advancing at the same rate as human single-classed characters, the multi-class character is advancing at half or one third the rate in each of the classes.

When the single-classed Magic-User is 10th level, a fighter/magic-user will be fighter 7/magic-user 8. A fighter/magic-user/thief will be fighter 7/magic-user 7/thief 8.

Doesn't sound like a big difference, does it? Well, in 1e, it is. The fighter will be 9th level. The cleric will be 9th level. The druid would be 11th level. The Paladin would be 8th. THe ranger, 9th. The illusionist, 10th. THe thief would be 11th.

Just in spells per day: Tenth level M-U gets 4/4/3/2/2. 8th level M-U gets 4/3/3/2. That's an additional 2nd level spell and two fifth level spells to the advantage of the 10th level M-U.

"But look at the hit points!" Nope... the hit points of a multiclassed character are averaged. That d10 for Fighter is averaged with the d4 for Magic-user. Add up the rolls and divide by two. Or three, if triple-classed.

All in all, multi-classed characters have their place because of versatility, but as the campaign gets higher in level, the multi-class starts falling behind.


Magic-user single-classed has to play smart in the low levels, has to think outside the "box" of "cast and rest", and above all, has to think of when to cast spells as opposed to thinking about which spell to cast.

Later on, that tactical and strategic thinking pays off in spades, when the magic-user finally gets the dramatic stuff. And that thinking ahead, that planning and considering, that's all lost in 4e. The real power creep started with 2nd edition, Forgotten Realms, and the lack of unified editorial control.
 

Edena_of_Neith

First Post
...5th level was the key level to reach, as fireball was a serious spell in those days ...

Remember Dragon Magazine complaining about the monk, and offering an improved version of the class?
It said: 'While the 6th level magic-user was gaining his 2nd Fireball to destroy the enemy, the monk is learning to Feign Death.'
LOL. Yeah, that 5th level mark was key.

Anyhow, wizard survival 101 in those days was mostly down to excellent situational awareness; knowing when to hold em and when to fold em, so to speak ;)
Cheers

Yes! Well put. As in Knightmare Chess, but heck, we all thought in those terms back then.
How'd that song go?
'You got to know when to ?, know when to ?, know when to ?, know when to run. You never count your money, while you're sitting at the table; there'll be time enough for counting, when the dealing is done.'

Incidentally, I always refer to wizards and fighter/wizards as 'her'.
This is meant as a compliment to women.
It is also meant as a compliment to all who dream.

And heck, theoretically, who wouldn't want to be a wizard, in addition to their normal classes? (Well ok, Conan wouldn't ... Big Bad Barbarians just HATE magic (and gained experience from destroying magical items in 1E))
It's just that, in 1E, you couldn't do that.
With Gestalting, though ... man, I could see an enterprising young lady taking flight with that option. : )
 


drothgery

First Post
I'd like to point out something important about the multi-classed fighter/magic-user/thief/whatever in 1st edition.

Experience earned was split equally between the classes.

This is important. It means that instead of advancing at the same rate as human single-classed characters, the multi-class character is advancing at half or one third the rate in each of the classes.

Except that the XP tables were pretty much exponential until 10th-122th level, and the game broke down completely much past 10th-12th level anyway so almost no one played beyond that point. Which meant you never more than a level or two behind anyone but the single-class theif (who discovered he was useless by 7th level despite being higher level than anybody else).
 
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Edena_of_Neith

First Post
When the single-classed Magic-User is 10th level, a fighter/magic-user will be fighter 7/magic-user 8. A fighter/magic-user/thief will be fighter 7/magic-user 7/thief 8.

What was important to us back then, was - and I'm telling you what you already know, of course - is:

Is the wizard 4th level or 5th level? (world of difference, obviously.)
Is the wizard 6th level or 7th level? (massive world of difference.)
Is the wizard 8th level or 9th level? (colossal world of difference.)
Is the wizard 11th level or 12th level? (make or break!)

(remembers that famous question: 'Can I kill a cow, for 1 experience point? Surely there must be a cow around to kill! No? How about a rat? Surely a rat is worth 1 experience point!')
(remembers an even more famous one from Dragon: 'QUICK, RUN FOR YOUR LIVES. There's a 19th level fighter outside, who needs 1 experience point to reach 20th level!' )

And heh, remember Chromatic Orb? At 9th level, it's basically Autokill (successful save means you're Slowed, and thus dead.) 12th level, and a successful save means paralysis (Autokill Supreme)
So yeah, that 11th level wizard - she is going to kill that rat to get to 12th level! (I remember so many debates over that one ... : ) )

Man, you bring Chromatic Orb into 3E, take that feat from Kalamar that disallows a save, add 3.0 divine metamagic in, and you got - Presto - an Instant Automatic Death Machine Lady Wizard at about 5th level.
Add in 18 dexterity, Gauntlets of Dexterity +6, Improved Initiative, Danger Sense (reroll init once, if you want), and that feat from the Options Book that granted another +2 to init, and the 3.0 Haste (+4 to init, I think?) and it's just marvelous (marvelous for the wizard, eat your hearts out for the poor beasties.)

Mighty, mighty monster: I am ready to fight!!!
Lady Mage: Sometime yesterday, I won initiative and killed you.
Mighty, mighty monster: Huh?
DM: Yep

Now, THIS is what I mean when I say 'cheating'. Rig the system to YOUR needs, and kick monster butt.
Any wizard worth her salt knows the mage game, and plays it to the zenith.

Of course, I haven't gone into such niceties as the Witch, the Death Master, the Chronomancer, or all those nifty spells from Dragon.

Want an example of a real 'broken' spell? Here's one:

Prismatic Blade (from Dragon.)
This spell creates a sword in the hands of the mage that has all the colors of the Prismatic Sphere, and may be used as a normal longsword (a multiclass fighter/wizard would, of course, get multiple, multiple attacks with it.)
Anything hit by this blade (armor would be NO defense, so this would be a Touch Attack in 3E) suffers ALL the effects of a Prismatic Sphere: 20 + 40 + 80 hit points of damage + save versus death, petrification, insanity, and being worldwalked to a different plane of existence.

Now, how many attacks could a 3.0 fighter of 17th level (assumes a gestalt fighter/mage 17th level, able to throw Prismatic Blade) get?
4? 5? 7? 8? LOL ...

It gets better, far better, than this (I could describe the chronomantic Melee Manager, if you would like :D )

All is fair in love, war, and wizardry!
 

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