Forked Thread: Just played my first 4E game
- Thread starter radferth
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Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
I can say only this:
In every party where we didn't have a "real" arcana spellcaster (Wizard or sometimes Sorcerer) or a "real" divine spellcaster (=Cleric, and rarely Druid), we noticed the lack of them severely.
We did also suffer if other roles weren't covered, most specifically the "Meat-Shield". We experienced that most Barbarian, Rangers, Rogues or Monks just couldn't cover the role _unless_ they had a Cleric in the back that healed them constantly.
(I think this mostly reinforces the idea of the importance of Roles)
Fighting against group of monsters is a pain without a Wizard or Sorcerer lobbing some fireballs. And fighting without a Bards, Clerics or Wizard/Sorcerer buff spells is very dangerous.
Most valuable protective abilities come from Clerics and Wizards. The only way to avoid that is a truck-load of magical items and Use Magic Device, which effectively meant you were still dependent on Wizard or Cleric class powers.
And seriously, several high level spells are critical for any party. Ressourection magic, Teleportation, and some Abjuration (Dispel Magic, Break Enchantment, Remove Curse) Divinations (Identify, Analyze Dweomer, Scrying, Find the Path) greatly affect the nature of the game, and if you have them, you can play entirely different campaigns then when you haven't, while it makes no functional difference whether the party has a Rogue5 or a Rogue15.
And that's why Spellcasters rule and are the most powerful. They change the nature of the game fundamentally.
In every party where we didn't have a "real" arcana spellcaster (Wizard or sometimes Sorcerer) or a "real" divine spellcaster (=Cleric, and rarely Druid), we noticed the lack of them severely.
We did also suffer if other roles weren't covered, most specifically the "Meat-Shield". We experienced that most Barbarian, Rangers, Rogues or Monks just couldn't cover the role _unless_ they had a Cleric in the back that healed them constantly.
(I think this mostly reinforces the idea of the importance of Roles)
Fighting against group of monsters is a pain without a Wizard or Sorcerer lobbing some fireballs. And fighting without a Bards, Clerics or Wizard/Sorcerer buff spells is very dangerous.
Most valuable protective abilities come from Clerics and Wizards. The only way to avoid that is a truck-load of magical items and Use Magic Device, which effectively meant you were still dependent on Wizard or Cleric class powers.
And seriously, several high level spells are critical for any party. Ressourection magic, Teleportation, and some Abjuration (Dispel Magic, Break Enchantment, Remove Curse) Divinations (Identify, Analyze Dweomer, Scrying, Find the Path) greatly affect the nature of the game, and if you have them, you can play entirely different campaigns then when you haven't, while it makes no functional difference whether the party has a Rogue5 or a Rogue15.
And that's why Spellcasters rule and are the most powerful. They change the nature of the game fundamentally.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
In 3.5E, I only one kind of Wizard caused huge in-combat problems that I witnessed, and that was, as others have described, Mr Save or Die, who has spent all his feats and maybe PrCs and possibly magic items making his save-or-die spells as likely to work as possible.
The difference between him and his 2E equivalent is significant. Saving throws worked very differently, and there was almost no mainstream way to enhance save-or-die spells, let alone dozens of ways.
The other kind of Wizard that caused some problems was Mr Utility, who had every utility spell ever (and then some - including Charms) and had scribed versions of tons of utility spells too, in case he didn't memorize the right ones. He was often downright boring or ineffective in combat, and completely wrecked scenarios outside of it, unless you took ridiculously elaborate precautions. It was kind of fun to see what he'd come up with, even a little bit A-Team, but the problem was, outside of combat, he completely dominated the party. This wasn't entirely out-of-line with 3.5E's "everyone has their day in the sun"-type philosophy, but it was somewhat disempowering to Rogues and other skill-oriented characters.
I imagine that some particularly smart Wizards were a horrible combination of the two, with every meaningful utility spell scribed, and every save-or-die spell memorized.
Voadam - I'm sure they're not, but apparently neither of them are optimized to be, because they would be if they were.
The difference between him and his 2E equivalent is significant. Saving throws worked very differently, and there was almost no mainstream way to enhance save-or-die spells, let alone dozens of ways.
The other kind of Wizard that caused some problems was Mr Utility, who had every utility spell ever (and then some - including Charms) and had scribed versions of tons of utility spells too, in case he didn't memorize the right ones. He was often downright boring or ineffective in combat, and completely wrecked scenarios outside of it, unless you took ridiculously elaborate precautions. It was kind of fun to see what he'd come up with, even a little bit A-Team, but the problem was, outside of combat, he completely dominated the party. This wasn't entirely out-of-line with 3.5E's "everyone has their day in the sun"-type philosophy, but it was somewhat disempowering to Rogues and other skill-oriented characters.
I imagine that some particularly smart Wizards were a horrible combination of the two, with every meaningful utility spell scribed, and every save-or-die spell memorized.
Voadam - I'm sure they're not, but apparently neither of them are optimized to be, because they would be if they were.
Jack99
Adventurer
They call him Batman!
Nightchilde-2
First Post
My players complained the loudest about save-or-die spells, especially when they were being used against them.
"Particularly smart"?
Didn't really have to be IMO. Just a little bit of experience and you eventually figure out the tricks. Throw in things like the Char-op's "How to be a Deity by level 13 a.k.a the Wizard's Handbook", it wasn't hard at all to figure out how to munchkin a core-only wizard.
Basically, after level 10, a 4 person magic party, druid, wizard, cleric and sorceror can handle ANY adventure, Can't say the same for a rogue, fighter, monk and barbarian party.
Malk
First Post
I'm not sure why you want examples of really powerful core only wizards because 4e was not created to correct core only 3e. In my group only a few people ever wanted to play wizards, but those few had to intentionally make subobtimal choices lest they quickly overshadow the other charecters not only in utility, but yes in straight up combat as well. Save or die spells were not the problem, there were plenty of spells that allowed no save but which essentially turned bad guys into sitting ducks for the party's melee types to pick off. If the wizard wanted to deal damage himself, he could polymorph and tank out better than the fighter, or could go the gish route and deal ludicrous amounts of damage while making nearly every attack as a touch attack.
Voadam
Legend
Feeblemind is a will save that will knock out spell casting and language. All spellcasters have strong will saves. Feebleminding someone like a fighter or a gryphon with a weak will save means he can't understand shouted warnings or commands. Ooh.
Finger of death and flesh to stone are fortitude saves, which means they are good against wizards, rogues, and bards, but very risky against most monsters, warriors, and cleric/druids.
Save or die spells are good when you target things with weak saves but they are always risky player options IMO and it is easy to be stymied and have your combat actions do nothing when you rely upon them.
Life force effects do not work against undead or constructs.
Outsiders have all good saves and often spell resistance as well.
Mind affecting does not work against undead, constructs, plants, oozes, vermin, mindless, etc. My elven beguiler in the Savage Tide spent a lot of combat time with a knife, bow, and interesting quips instead of magic because of this.
Well, in my experience wizards have not been overpowered in the sense that they totally dominated combats (though they are good damage dealers as well). The _real_ problem was that they were 'overpowered' in every other sense.
It's just like you said in your second paragraph: Wizards were indispensible for their utility spells. If you had a wizard in your party the need for the skill system was basically eliminated. Who needs a rogue if the wizard could do everything the rogue could, only better?
At mid-level range wizard spells eliminated the effect of the environment, certain types of adventures (mystery) and threats. Wizards tended to steal the light of every other class at some point. As a 3E DM I mainly have to design adventures around the wizard's available spells.
The 'overpowered' damage dealers in my campaign are psions and wilders. Psions get some pretty good utility stuff as well, but it's not nearly as good as what wizards get.
Finally, spellcasters (not just the wizards) defined the pace of an adventure. That's where the 5 minute adventuring day came from.
So, what 4E did to the poor wizards is that they're now as specialized as other classes. They're still the most flexible class, but only within their niche. The game is no longer centered on their abilities, you can probably even play the game just as well without a wizard in your party.
If that's a change for better or worse, everyone has to decide for him/herself. Me, I like it.
Starbuck_II
Explorer
You forgot Forcecage.
And yes, Forcecage does work on undead and constructs. Disintegrate is the save or die for Undead.
Shapechange and Gate are my primary spells to show overpoweredness.
Shapechange gives you every supernatural ability (yes, there are even wish supernaturals).
Oh, guess what, a Balors sword is supernatural: infinite money trick.
Create sword, Drop sword, change different form, turn into Balor; Repeat.
Dropped things do not revert according to shapechange.
Or the Wish supernatural ability...
Or Gating to grant wishes...
