Forked Thread: Just played my first 4E game

With haste alone, in a party with at least 3 physical damage dealers, say fighter, rogue and cleric, the wizard will be outdamaging the rest of the party assuming they normally have 2 attacks per round. The haste attack is at full BAB so it's better than the iterative attack. That means that just the 3 haste attacks do more damage than a single party member because one of his attacks is iterative and therefore worse. And this only took a single round's action. Even if he twiddles his thumbs the whole rest of the fight, the wizard's out dpsing the fighter.

Battlefield control spells such as web and force wall win encounters by splitting opposition or giving the party a chance to flee. Glitterdust versus groups with a bad will save is practically an auto-win, and it doesn't even allow SR making it a golem killer. Fly is an auto-win against creatures that lack flight or ranged attacks, which is a lot of them. Fly is why the 3e tarrasque is a pussy.

Consider a fighter going up against a huge or bigger monstrous scorpion. If he melees it he's dead for sure, there's almost no way to avoid its improved grab, or make the save against its poison. To the wizard otoh it barely even counts as an encounter because it can't touch him. And the same is true of other big melee hitters such as giants. The fighter cannot afford to engage them but the swiss-army-knife wizard can target them with a will save. These are monsters where the fighter *should* shine. Big melee threats. But they are actually, like most everything else, jobs for the wizard.

Invisibility, spider climb and knock make the wizard a better rogue than the rogue.

And don't get me started on magic jar. I got very sick of that spell in the last game I ran. It's pretty much invincible unless the monsters have prot evil up the whole time, which is highly implausible (and only lasts 1min/level). It's one more example of how pervasive magic is in high level D&D. Everyone has to be a caster to be a threat but the way it works is extremely boring. It's totally binary. Either you win easily or have no chance. If the PCs have magic jar it's an easy win. If the baddies have prot evil it fails utterly. There's no middle ground.

In the last campaign in which I played a wizard our 8th level 3-man group was having a lot of trouble with a ragewalker, a powerful CR 14 monster. Spell resistance 28, Will DC 28 if you go near it or enter a berserker rage, many ranged attacks. Pretty much all it has to do is walk up to you and it wins. It had TPKed or near TPKed us twice (we got rezzed). Eventually it was killed by me, entirely on my own, once we levelled up to 9th with the combo of Fly, Evard's Black Tentacles and Cloudkill (the last two both ignore SR). I had eschewed fly up until now, regarding it as making fights too easy (which should tell you something about the power of a wizard). It shouldn't be this way. The wizard shouldn't be soloing monsters of level +5 CR. D&D should be a team game.

In closing - flying invisible summoner ftw.
 
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I DM'd a game from level 1 to 21. I certainly noticed how poweful the casters (Mage, cleric and Druid) became but because the fighter's player was effective, laid back and seemed to be enjoying herself immensely I never really thought about how much better the casters became.

Then after the epic conclusion of my game I was a bit burned out so gladly let my friend start a new campaign where I decided to play a fighter-mage. Once I hit about 7th level I noticed a few things:

1) Despite the fact that the DM routinely threw in locked doors, "sneaky scenarios" etc. the lack of a rogue did not hurt our party in the slightest because I had knock, invisibility and other nice spells. By mid levels good divination spells (prying eyes etc.) made my utility abilities huge.

2) After I hit 7th level I was abe to easily keep up with the fighter in armor class despite being limited to a chain shirt -solely based on spells like shield, dragonskin (spell compendium) and if I wanted to get cheesy (which I rarely did but the DM pulled no punches) polymorph. By mid high levels blink (and improved blink from the spelll compendium) made it ridiculously difficult to damage me.

3) By the time of mid levels+ while I could not out damage the fighter in combat, I could easily be more useful. My mobility was unmatched (expeditious retreat is undervalued and the short ranged teleports meant if we had to run, I was the only way to do so -monsters tend to be faster than PCs). Ray of enfeeblement (empowered at higher levels), Web, slow (a very underestimated and underused spell), haste and evards black tentackles made difficult fights into cakewalks.

4) I rarely ran out of utility spells like knock, invisibility, comprehend languages, fly etc. Scrolls are relatively cheap and quite plentiful assuming you have any down time at all. This meant I could concentrate memorized spells on combat stuff and the like - my utility was covered.

All in all I was way too effective both in and out of combat - after a certain point it seemed unfair. And we never even got to the "big time" levels where casters make reality their plaything while non-casters just hit stuff a bit harder.
 


Was wraithstrike banned?

Honestly no and my original intention was to fully capitalize on it. I used it a few times at 9th-10th level (and being the optimizer that I am I combined it with arcane strike, haste, blink and full power attack with a greatsword iow usually 3 attacks that only missed on a 1); after seeing the jaws on the floor look of the DM and the party fighter, I voluntarily chose to retire it.

Which of course should say something; I suppose I should say I voluntarily did not do as much damage as the party fighter.
 
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If your wizards were doing damage, they were played sub-optimally.

What is regularly? 40% 50%? 60%? If you think that is good, you are missing the point. When the wizard can throw out tons of these spells every round, with decent to huge areas, some of which are even ignoring his allies, monsters need quite a bit higher to be of any use. Sure, the odd dragon or lich or vampire might be able to resist all the time. However, when 95% of all monsters can't then the wizard starts to shine a bit too much.

Cheers

Peoples play experience differs.

9 times out of 10 'save or no effect' spells were 'no effect' in our games because the bad guys saved :). I've never seen wizards able to throw out tons of these spells every round (only one spell per round, and unless he is using a wand (low DC == even worse chance of effect) or staff (very expensive) the wizard didn't even have lots and lots of spells available. Certainly less than the sorcerer at levels 7 and up.

End result - optimal wizard play involved doing damage to foes.

Now I don't doubt that with prestige classes and additional stuff it was possible to pump up save DCs, but with straight 3.5? Two feats to increase DC by 2 didn't really make that much of a difference.

Save or dies is a high risk, high reward strategy - you might win the match, you might end up being totally ineffective during it.

Cheers
 

Peoples play experience differs.

9 times out of 10 'save or no effect' spells were 'no effect' in our games because the bad guys saved :).

Cheers

If I were playing in that game I would have accused the DM of cheating. 90% save rate? In my experience as a wizard, saves against most effects succeeded about 60% of the time as long as you didn't play to the enemy's strengths. Also, to the poster who mentioned that all spellcasters had high will saves, Feeblemind could do wonders against wizards and sorcerors, who rarely had high Wis scores to pump up their saves.
 

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