Forked Thread: My first 4E game...

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Do you read history? I read quite a bit. I have spent a great deal of time reading about knights and medieval warriors.

They trained from a young age to fight. They didn't see battle for a long time, but because they had sparred, trained with many different weapons, trained to fight on horseback, and learned various tactics and strategies for fighting they were very prepared when they stepped on a real battlefield. So they might live long enough to gain the practical experience of the battlefield.

These men were not the type of men to die easily even to a more skilled warrior. Their training very much prepared them for the battlefield. It was nothing like modern day school.

I view the training a wizard or fighter have as I do the training of those medieval knights. They have spent much of their life training in weapons and armor, sparring, and practicing combat maneuvers. When they start adventuring, they are special operations soldiers just out of bootcamp. A higher class of indvidual than your standard guard. And they have been rigrously trained so they will not die in the first battle they enter to a single hit.

No one sends a boy on the battlefield if he isn't trained to do the job expected of him. I guarantee you that a 12 year old boy trained to be a knight and that was a knight's squire would beat a 20 year old modern man of today in a fight. He would match up in hand to hand against fairly advanced modern hand to hand warriors due to the amount of training he would have received in arms by the age of 12.

So this is a matter of how we view an adventurer's young life. To me a person starting out on an adventure is the apprentice of a stronger wizard or fighter who would not think of letting a student go on their first adventure unless they were fairly certain they would be able to survive.

I think 4E does a better job of simulating the amount of training that a young adventurer would have.

Truth be told, I think this is somewhat of a problem that people have with 4e. Lots of folks liked the rags to riches story of some farm boy going out to make a name for himself and doing just that. Unfortunately, that's one of the points of "Well, sorry, but your play style no longer works."

I think the diehard 3E guys who haven't spent much time studying 4E or don't know the ruleset very well want to argue. So they make false statements based on shallow experiences with the 4E system that don't tell the truth about it. It's their way of promoting anti-4E propaganda rather than just saying the simple truth: "They didn't give 4E much of a try, they like 3E better, and they don't want to play 4E."

If they said that, then I would have nothing to say. That is an opinion.

Stating that the 4E classes feel homogenous and can't be made as distinctive as a 3E class is just an outright falsehood born of either unfamiliarity the 4E PHB classes or an outright attempt to propagandize against 4E. Either way, I aim to dispel that myth.

I played 3E a long time as both DM and player. I owned every splatbook, the PHB 2, and some 3rd party source materials that further expanded options for characters. I know the 3E system better than most that play it, and the few that know it better than me...well, good for them.

I've played 4E now. Right from the beginning I had more options than I ever had with the 3E PHB. I have never had such trouble making a choice of characters as I have had choosing what race and class to play in 4E.

Not only did they make each class and race unique and individual. They also made each one so good that it is difficult to choose which one to play. I never had that trouble in 3E. The best races were obvious for a particular class, the best feat builds were obvious for a particular class. That isn't the case with 4E. That to me means they did a great job differentiating each race and class as well as balancing them so that one didn't stand too far above the other.

I like that I have a hard choice choosing whether to elf, dwarf, or eladrin. I like that I have a hard choice choosing whether to be a char or str based paladin. Each one plays unique and can give you a very useful benefit. It makes you fret to pick one path or the other because of what you'll lose by doing so. If that isn't differentiation with strong touch of balance, I don't know what is.

I don't think you got the issue of the "classes feel same-y." It's not based on classes not having different "builds" as much as it's based on the Powers system. Classes feel same-y because, quite literally, they're supposed to. Wizards made it one of their big goals in 4e to homogenize mechanics to ensure the classes remained balanced. Classes working the same is, in all honesty, one of the things 4e uses as a selling point. Denying this isn't just saying "you're wrong" to the players, it's saying that Wizards doesn't know their own game.

People say classes are same-y because they're comparing it to 3e where several classes all used different mechanics entire. Even straight from the core books there was a difference between how class mechanics worked with different classes or builds, that was big in some cases (wizards and non-casters) or a smaller difference (sorcerers and wizards). But the thing was, the difference was still there. In 4e, because of the Powers system, fighters fight like wizards fight like rogues fight like paladins fight like every single unreleased class will fight. I'm not saying that's inherently a bad thing - again, this is one of 4e's selling points. It's just something that some people will like, and others won't.
 

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Also, the idea of "no whining" while discussing an edition that was created entirely because of people whining about 3e is either depressing or hilarious. Or both. I'm not sure.
 


People say classes are same-y because they're comparing it to 3e where several classes all used different mechanics entire. Even straight from the core books there was a difference between how class mechanics worked with different classes or builds, that was big in some cases (wizards and non-casters) or a smaller difference (sorcerers and wizards). But the thing was, the difference was still there. In 4e, because of the Powers system, fighters fight like wizards fight like rogues fight like paladins fight like every single unreleased class will fight. I'm not saying that's inherently a bad thing - again, this is one of 4e's selling points. It's just something that some people will like, and others won't.

But I think that's where the pro-4E is trying to get across. A 4E paladin most assuredly doesn't feel in play just like a 4E fighter even though, supposedly, these are the exact same roles.

Same thing with say the rogue and the warlock. Both are strikers but in play, there's MUCH greater play difference between a rogue and a warlock (and a ranger for that matter) in 4E than in any other previous editions.

The same thing which you believe makes them the same (the powers) is explcitly what makes them play so differently. For example, I find that even the two builds of the Rogue make them play differently than say the sirceror and the wizard in previous editions.

The thing is, it is 3E itself that showed that having the same mechanic didn't mean the classes play the same. I doubt you would have anyone say that the beguiler, the warmage and the dread necromancer play the same even though, their "mechanics" are exactly the same.

Similarly, the crusader, the warblade and the swordsage all use the same mechanic and play differently. Hell, two swordsages in the same party can play and feel vastly differently even moreso IME.


re: Fragility of 1st level pcs.
I blame 2E for this actually. 2nd edition was the edition that I always consider the first time roleplaying was actually talked about.

Here's the thing though...In those DRAGON magazine articles during 2E heydays, I always remember reading things about how players should hav at least a paragraph about the history of the character and even giving advice such that those that come out with longer and more involved "backstory" for their PCs should be rewarded.

Yet, 2E kept the exact same lethality as 1E where it seemed the assumpton was that you didn't actually have a backstory until level 3 or 4.

Seriously, put the onus on 2E for making characters more durable in later editions because frankly, I'd be seriously cheesed off if I have to make characters with whole backstories and they die in the first round of combat without me even rolling the dice.
 

"Stating that the 4E classes feel homogenous and can't be made as distinctive as a 3E class is just an outright falsehood "

It's this kind of statement that seems to derail things - I'll give another shot at explanation.

Stating that anything FEELS like anything else cannot be called an 'outright falsehood' in this forum, because it is an opinion.

The only way that you can say that someone is making a false statement by saying that something 'feels' a certain way is if you truly know how they feel.

If I say I feel that the weather is lousy, you can't say that's a falsehood - it's how I feel. If I say that it's raining and it's not, THAT would be a falsehood.

You are currently saying that you know how people really feel, and that they are not accurately expressing those feelings here.

"an opinion based on a false assumption is incorrect" - no. Opinions are neither correct nor incorrect. Opinions based on false assumptions are perhaps misguided, but the opinions are real and cannot be declared to be false just because you don't agree, and they can't be declared false even if they were based on flawed or incorrect information (which may or may NOT be the case here).

And opinions can be wrong can't they? That opinion is not backed up by factual statements. So that opinion was wrong and I debunked it. The classes do not play the same. I know it for a fact. I have experienced playing 4E classes, three different classes in fact, and I found none of them to be alike.
 

And opinions can be wrong can't they? That opinion is not backed up by factual statements. So that opinion was wrong and I debunked it. The classes do not play the same. I know it for a fact. I have experienced playing 4E classes, three different classes in fact, and I found none of them to be alike.

So are you saying the classes have no similarities? Because if they do, for some, the similarities might outweigh the differences. It's really a subjective thing.
 

Truth be told, I think this is somewhat of a problem that people have with 4e. Lots of folks liked the rags to riches story of some farm boy going out to make a name for himself and doing just that. Unfortunately, that's one of the points of "Well, sorry, but your play style no longer works."

Yeah, a farmboy fighter eh? That somehow learned to use all martial weapons and heavy plate in battle and ride horses and climb. And learn combat feats to start with?

Or a farmboy that mastered magic and has a starting spellbook?

Or a farmboy that started out as a dedicated priest that knows how to wear heavy armor and use weapons and turn undead?

Sorry man, even in 3E if you wanted to do a starting farmboy you had to take the commoner class and wait to become another class. How many people did this?

I see no reason why you couldn't do the same in 4E if you so chose. Your DM could come up with a way.


I don't think you got the issue of the "classes feel same-y." It's not based on classes not having different "builds" as much as it's based on the Powers system. Classes feel same-y because, quite literally, they're supposed to. Wizards made it one of their big goals in 4e to homogenize mechanics to ensure the classes remained balanced. Classes working the same is, in all honesty, one of the things 4e uses as a selling point. Denying this isn't just saying "you're wrong" to the players, it's saying that Wizards doesn't know their own game.

People say classes are same-y because they're comparing it to 3e where several classes all used different mechanics entire. Even straight from the core books there was a difference between how class mechanics worked with different classes or builds, that was big in some cases (wizards and non-casters) or a smaller difference (sorcerers and wizards). But the thing was, the difference was still there. In 4e, because of the Powers system, fighters fight like wizards fight like rogues fight like paladins fight like every single unreleased class will fight. I'm not saying that's inherently a bad thing - again, this is one of 4e's selling points. It's just something that some people will like, and others won't.

That's just it. Balanced does not equal same-y.

I thought the same thing prior to playing the game. The given the mechanics the classes would feel too much alike. But they don't. They don't play alike and they don't feel alike.

I was wrong. I was happy to be wrong.

As I said, so far I have tried three different classes. They all play differently. The cleric is still a very powerful healer and his powers give very different bonuses than the powers of a rogue or paladin.

If anything I would say 3E classes feel more same-y at level 1. They may get very differentiated, but at low level 4E classes feel and play differently.

When you played a starting rogue and fighter, you both did melee damage. Even though the rogue was supposed to be the tough damage dealer in 3E, he was very weak at dealing damage compared to the warrior. So if you played a single class rogue, you were the damage gimp compared to the warrior. So you really didn't fulfill your role in the game and felt like a weaker fighter there were so many limits on your sneak attack.

But in 4E the rogue feels like that shifty sneaky fighter or that brutal thug that has learned to maximize his attacks. He feels and plays very differently from the fighter right from level 1.

You seem to be confusing balance with homoginization. Just because Wizards employed a more balanced mechanic does not at all make the characters seem homogenous. They play very differently. If you have any questions as to how, then I'll answer them.

But the characters feel homogenous is as I said earlier: based on a lack of experience with 4E or based on a bias against 4E. Because if you spend the time playing and going over the abilities of each class you find they are very different, play very different, and can do very different things.

A fighter cannot do what a wizard does even if they have a few attacks that do similar damage. A warlord cannot do what a cleric does even if they fill a similar role.

This same-y feel is like saying clerics and wizards in 3E are the same because they both use d6 as a damage standard for their abilities. Is that the case to you? Or saying rogues and fighters are the same because they both use melee weapons. Is that how you feel?

I guarantee you in 4E that a rogue and a fighter don't play the same at all. If you read a list of their powers, you will find that each stands out in a much more defined way than they ever did in 3E.

Now mind you, that is comparing PHB to PHB, not includind splatbooks. If you include the splatbooks then the 3E system allows for more differentiation. But as far as straight PHB versus PHB I give the edge to the 4E PHB for character options and differentiation.
 

And opinions can be wrong can't they? That opinion is not backed up by factual statements. So that opinion was wrong and I debunked it. The classes do not play the same. I know it for a fact. I have experienced playing 4E classes, three different classes in fact, and I found none of them to be alike.

Well, we've reached the 'pig seems to like it' part of the argument about opinions/facts -- I can explain that if you'd like, but I'm not calling anyone a pig. Those who don't get what we're saying about feelings are seemingly choosing not to. If you can't tell the difference between someone's statement about how they FEEL about something and someone's statement about a verifiable or disputable statement of fact, I don't wish to assume or insinuate that you are not smart - I'll assume you're a smart fellow and you've made a choice.

One last try? Monday was 68 degrees and sunny where I live, Tuesday was 69 degrees and mostly sunny where I live.

My statement: Monday and Tuesday felt the same to me.

My prediction of your statement: You're a liar! I have facts that clearly show that one day had a different temperature, and now you must look at these photos and you will see that clouds are present on Tuesday!

Me: but to me they felt the same...you can feel differently, but I'm not being false by telling you how I FELT about something independent of the actual data you provide.

You: well, you're still a liar.

etc. etc.
 

Oof. A fork that *starts* with line-by-line rebuttals. My head hurts.

Anyway,to respond to the only part of this thread I can understand, seems pretty easy to add "0th level" to the game if that's something you really want. Just give people their feats and powers as they progress?
 

Oof. A fork that *starts* with line-by-line rebuttals. My head hurts.

Anyway,to respond to the only part of this thread I can understand, seems pretty easy to add "0th level" to the game if that's something you really want. Just give people their feats and powers as they progress?

Allow me to append to the tail of SweeneyTodd (okay, that was bad)...

That's a good suggestion. I just think that in the minds of many who want the 'weak start', the issue is not that in 4th edition it is completely impossible to introduce a 0th level or whatever, but that the difference between the two versions in terms of starting characters is pretty vast in this respect.

Is it a bit odd that a 'farm boy' or whatever has some training in the magical arts in 3e?.....sure, but his training has given him the ability to use very low power spells very rarely, and a good smack will knock him out.

And yes the fighter farm boy has lots of proficiencies.

The point for me is that the difference between 3e NPC farmboy and 1st level PC wizard is much smaller than the difference between a 4e NPC farmboy and 1st level PC wizard.

This is not saying that either is right - this was a conscious design decision on WOTC part, and it makes it neither better nor worse, just different.

In both systems you'd have to fudge things to create a true farm boy, or normal bartender, or whatever normal dude you want, but in 3e the starting point is much closer to a normal being than in 4e, where by their own admission you are already an established hero. I will admit that probably most modern gamers want a character that is awesome right out of the gates, so WOTC is probably serving the bulk of their customer base well with this change, but it IS a change.
 

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