Forked Thread: My first 4E game...

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In both systems you'd have to fudge things to create a true farm boy, or normal bartender, or whatever normal dude you want, but in 3e the starting point is much closer to a normal being than in 4e, where by their own admission you are already an established hero. I will admit that probably most modern gamers want a character that is awesome right out of the gates, so WOTC is probably serving the bulk of their customer base well with this change, but it IS a change.

Um, how come you're ignoring the fact that human guards et al are also "much more powerful than normal".

Looking at the stats of the 2nd level guard, a party of 5 PCs versus 5 guards looks like a 50/50 battle.

How "established" can you be if the PCs can't even beat down guards?
 

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Um, how come you're ignoring the fact that human guards et al are also "much more powerful than normal".

Looking at the stats of the 2nd level guard, a party of 5 PCs versus 5 guards looks like a 50/50 battle.

How "established" can you be if the PCs can't even beat down guards?

I wasn't ignoring it - the power level of the NPCs guarding a castle has no bearing on whether or not the PCs are more powerful than the average goatherd. In fact, I would suggest that if I owned a castle, I wouldn't hire a guard who fought like a mighty goatherd.

I was simply noting what WOTC had actually declared, that the PCs even at the heroic tier are 'set apart from the common people' by their talents, skills, etc. Combine that with the array of powers at first level, combine that with the far larger number of hit points, and then combine those in a big pot with the minion rules where human rabble or lackeys fall at a single hit, and I think that this adequately establishes that the PCs even at first level are a breed apart.

Stating that the human guards supplied to challenge them are also a cut above is a completely separate issue. They are described in the MM as armed with halberds and crossbows - I wouldn't pay for my troops to have those if they weren't well trained....it also says that they fight well together and use unit tactics - again a sign of intense training.

I mean, I guess I'm also ignoring that a green dragon is vastly more powerful than a goatherd.
 

Maybe an example is in order?

Earlier editions: Commoner hits my Level 1 wizard with a club, doing 1d6 damage...this equates
 

(EDITED BAD MATH)

Maybe an example is in order?

Earlier editions: Commoner hits my Level 1 wizard with a club, doing 1d6 damage...assuming I haven't done something weird like take Toughness or make Int my dump stat to focus on Con, this equates to a 50% of knocking me to zero hps. I can either hit him back with my quarterstaff for the same damage and likely same chance of dropping (since he also gets a d4 - granted his is rolled, but whatever) him to the ground, or I can hit him with my magic missile and drop him - of course, unless I have a bonus from Int that's my only spell for the day.

4E: A commoner hits my Level 1 wizard with a club, doing 1d6 damage. Assuming a normal Con, I'll have 20 hit points, so he can do this at least two more times for max damage and I'm still okay, ignoring any healing surges. Now it's my turn - I can At Will use Cloud of Daggers or Magic Missile or Ray of Frost or Scorching Burst or Thunderwave....not only does each and every one of these completely wipe out the minion, but they also have special effects along with them for amusement purposes (he's dead and moved around)...if I do this, I can do the same thing again next round. If I instead use a daily power...well....every one of those takes him out also...except Sleep, I guess. OR I could hit him in the head with a stick, or my fist, and he's out.

It's a matter of preference - I'm not saying one is better than the other -speaking as a player who's lost his share of wizards to tiny damage - but it is clear that the PCs start WAY beyond the normals, far more powerful in comparison to earlier versions.
 
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And opinions can be wrong can't they? That opinion is not backed up by factual statements./
Your supposition is that an opinion has to be backed by factual statements to prove its correctness. The flaw in your argument is that you are defining a Theory not an Opinion. An opinion is based on emotional and subjective information. While a theory is a basis of questions put forth through a hypothetical process by which the process proves the facts in order to back the theory.

So that opinion was wrong and I debunked it.

In order for this to have occured you would have had to do so based on the above correction to your supposition. Since this did not take place a debunking did not occur.

The classes do not play the same. I know it for a fact.

This is an opinion. You have stated your opinion based on subjective information and an emotional response. Your statement that they do not "play the same" is the same as saying "feel the same". Your statement of "I know for a fact", is a way of stating you know for a fact according to your emotional response.

I have experienced playing 4E classes, three different classes in fact, and I found none of them to be alike.

If we are to consider this to be your opinion, then in your opinion they do not feel the same. However if we are to consider you to be the definitive answer to the question at hand then we must consider that your test of homegenous classes is incomplete. The incompletion in the fact that you played only three of the classes. The scientific method of which we are approaching requires that you compelete your test based on all classes available in order to approach a more true test.

Now since we neither are accepting your opinion as fact, nor are we considering your statement to be a definitive statement. We must conclude that in the end what you have stated is a feeling or more appropriately stated an opinion. Which in the end proves that the earlier poster's opinion is inherently neither right or wrong.
 

Truth be told, I think this is somewhat of a problem that people have with 4e. Lots of folks liked the rags to riches story of some farm boy going out to make a name for himself and doing just that. Unfortunately, that's one of the points of "Well, sorry, but your play style no longer works."

Like someone said, the poor farmboy trained in high-class weapons with 150 gold pieces?

I don't think you got the issue of the "classes feel same-y." It's not based on classes not having different "builds" as much as it's based on the Powers system. Classes feel same-y because, quite literally, they're supposed to. Wizards made it one of their big goals in 4e to homogenize mechanics to ensure the classes remained balanced. Classes working the same is, in all honesty, one of the things 4e uses as a selling point. Denying this isn't just saying "you're wrong" to the players, it's saying that Wizards doesn't know their own game.

People say classes are same-y because they're comparing it to 3e where several classes all used different mechanics entire. Even straight from the core books there was a difference between how class mechanics worked with different classes or builds, that was big in some cases (wizards and non-casters) or a smaller difference (sorcerers and wizards). But the thing was, the difference was still there. In 4e, because of the Powers system, fighters fight like wizards fight like rogues fight like paladins fight like every single unreleased class will fight. I'm not saying that's inherently a bad thing - again, this is one of 4e's selling points. It's just something that some people will like, and others won't.

This is a common misconception about the power system. The power system does not promote homogeneity- just the opposite, the power system allows for a tremendous amount of diversity in a set framework. In 3.x and earlier editions, you had to learn complex, kludgey subsystems for multiple classes, that didn't really seem to be part of the same game. In 4e, you have one or two class-specific features, and then everyone has powers. While all powers work according to the same rules, all powers do NOT work the same way. Rather, every single power can be viewed as its own concise subsystem, a single exception to the normal rules. There's no need to learn an entire convoluted system, just read the rules for that specific power. That's how it works in theory, anyway. In practice, I don't think someone can honestly say a wizard plays just like a fighter, or that a warlord plays like a ranger.
 

(EDITED BAD MATH)

Maybe an example is in order?

Earlier editions: Commoner hits my Level 1 wizard with a club, doing 1d6 damage...assuming I haven't done something weird like take Toughness or make Int my dump stat to focus on Con, this equates to a 50% of knocking me to zero hps. I can either hit him back with my quarterstaff for the same damage and likely same chance of dropping (since he also gets a d4 - granted his is rolled, but whatever) him to the ground, or I can hit him with my magic missile and drop him - of course, unless I have a bonus from Int that's my only spell for the day.

4E: A commoner hits my Level 1 wizard with a club, doing 1d6 damage. Assuming a normal Con, I'll have 20 hit points, so he can do this at least two more times for max damage and I'm still okay, ignoring any healing surges. Now it's my turn - I can At Will use Cloud of Daggers or Magic Missile or Ray of Frost or Scorching Burst or Thunderwave....not only does each and every one of these completely wipe out the minion, but they also have special effects along with them for amusement purposes (he's dead and moved around)...if I do this, I can do the same thing again next round. If I instead use a daily power...well....every one of those takes him out also...except Sleep, I guess. OR I could hit him in the head with a stick, or my fist, and he's out.

It's a matter of preference - I'm not saying one is better than the other -speaking as a player who's lost his share of wizards to tiny damage - but it is clear that the PCs start WAY beyond the normals, far more powerful in comparison to earlier versions.

"minion" is not a synonym for "normal".
Have you seen goblin blackblades? Those things are _scary!_
 

I've read the thread a couple of times now, i think you are both arguing about two different points.

One is coming from a 3e perspective where every class had a different progression table, hence every class was different. In 4e everyone has the same progression hence ever class is the same.

The other is coming from another perspective where every class plays differently.

The different roles (leader/striker/defender/controller) have totally different aspects to their powers and class features which guide and encourage you to play the class in a certain way, and even within a class there are options to choose different powers with change the experience yet again, races also change the experience but to a lesser extent.

The classes will play the same if you just use basic attacks, and ignore the class features, at wills, encounter powers and your role.

I'm not saying that 3e classes weren't different, i'm saying that 4e are.

They have to make different decisions made even if they are in the same situation, a fighter defends the group and whacks any monster who ignores him, a wizard sets his ranged powers on the biggest threat to stall it and make it less effective or he blasts away a couple of minions, a ranger scampers away and chucks a volley of arrows at the ranged attacker at the back, a cleric stands next to the fighter, wacking away at the bad guys and giving bonus' and healing to his allies when they need them.
If you swap any of the classes around in that example above they just can't fill the role with anyway near enough proficency, therefore the classes can't possibly play the same, or am i misunderstanding "what a class plays like" means?
 

Do you read history? I read quite a bit. I have spent a great deal of time reading about knights and medieval warriors.

They trained from a young age to fight. They didn't see battle for a long time, but because they had sparred, trained with many different weapons, trained to fight on horseback, and learned various tactics and strategies for fighting they were very prepared when they stepped on a real battlefield. So they might live long enough to gain the practical experience of the battlefield.

These men were not the type of men to die easily even to a more skilled warrior. Their training very much prepared them for the battlefield. It was nothing like modern day school.

A single crossbow bolt, longbow arrow, or even a short bow arrow would suffice in the scenario.


I view the training a wizard or fighter have as I do the training of those medieval knights. They have spent much of their life training in weapons and armor, sparring, and practicing combat maneuvers. When they start adventuring, they are special operations soldiers just out of bootcamp. A higher class of indvidual than your standard guard. And they have been rigrously trained so they will not die in the first battle they enter to a single hit.

Are we saying that the Wizard is as equall trained in the skills of martial arts as the fighter? If this is true does not the not make the Wizard as homogenous as the fighter. Thus stating they are trained the exact same? Based on your statement I can gather that is what you are saying.


No one sends a boy on the battlefield if he isn't trained to do the job expected of him. I guarantee you that a 12 year old boy trained to be a knight and that was a knight's squire would beat a 20 year old modern man of today in a fight. He would match up in hand to hand against fairly advanced modern hand to hand warriors due to the amount of training he would have received in arms by the age of 12.

Actually according to history this occurred on many battlefields. The Civil War was a great example of this occurance. And over time it has happened in many events where an untrained and unskilled person was given a weapon and sent on the field. The term conscript was used for this, also draft.

The idea of a 12 year old medieval boy matching vs a 20 year old modern day man is a situation in which you have left out the most imporant part. You have left out their level of skill and the equipment involved. If we were to consider all things being equal that might be different. If this is your argument then I would state the 20 year old would soundly beat the 12 year old based on 8 years of difference in experience. Thus meaning he has seen more war, more battle, more adventure.

So this is a matter of how we view an adventurer's young life. To me a person starting out on an adventure is the apprentice of a stronger wizard or fighter who would not think of letting a student go on their first adventure unless they were fairly certain they would be able to survive.

I think 4E does a better job of simulating the amount of training that a young adventurer would have.

It does simulate the amount of training that a young freshly trained out of boot camp military trained individual might be. However it does not reflect the vast majority of what you find in fantasy stories/novels.


What you just described would be a non-combat sage, not a wizard.

What I described was what you find in a novel. Frodo wasn't trained, yet he survived many battles. Nor was Samwise.

A 4E wizard is a character that spent much of his life mastering the art of magic and how to wield it in combat. That's how I envision the wizard.

How does this make him able to take a knife to the heart or throat? I fail to see how this makes him equal to the fighter in combat. Unless we consider your above statement about wizards and fighters.

So no, they would not be very old. That is the thinking of a modern person. Not a person from the type of tech level you would find in DnD times.

The average life span of those times was 40. Thus making 12 to 14 as middle aged or very close.

Are you seriously asking me this? All 3E cleric spells were based on wisdom as the prime spellcasting statistic. If you did not focus on and enhance your wisdom, you gimped your character and you scaled badly.

Dependent upon focus once did not have to exclusively build based on wisdom. In fact many who were hunters of undead did not.

Yes, you could choose spells that blast, but you wouldn't be anywhere near the AoE master that a wizard was. If you were the only cleric in the party, you were needed to heal. If you didn't play this way, then I don't know how you survived high level encounters.

Yes you are correct you would not be the AoE master of the wizard. However potions are a wonderful thing as are wands. You can survive a lot if you put your mind to work.

How did your paladin play like a Spartan without having high strength? What did he do exactly? I don't even know what you're talking about. In 3E high strength meant more damage and a better chance to hit. How did your paladin not focus on strength and still be an effective warrior? He does bonus damage based on strength. He swings based on strength. His second focus stat would be Charisma.

Moderately armored, Weapon Finesse, and a good dex and strength rather than just high strength. Remember in the movie they used team tactics, short spears, and short swords. Flanking gave bonuses to hit, Power Attack when you can as well for added damage.


This is how the 3E paladin worked. Did you make some kind of less effective paladin that focused on other stats?

This is how the 3E paladin worked for you. However what I built was a person who driven by zeal for their god fougth with the heart of a lion. Stood for what she believed in, and fought beside her allies with shield and blade.
 

Forking a discussion to a new thread is great when you want to discuss a tangent which has come up in an existing thread.

However, any first post which starts off as a multi-point rebuttle of someone else's position is typically not about furthering an interesting discussion as much as it is about furthering (or starting) an argument.

Sadly, there has been much uncharitable behaviour in this thread already.

Thus, it is closed
 

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