Forked Thread: Rate WotC as a company: 4e Complete?

[JoeGKushner]

Forked from: Rate WotC as a company

Management change won't fix the real problem, which is the company that owns them.

My guess is that WotC wanted to have a a larger marketing campaign for 4E. Hasbro wouldn't give them the budget.

Hasbro wanted more sales throughout the life of the new edition. The only way to deliver that is to release an incomplete version of the game.

Hasbro wanted to invest less money into the products themselves. WotC goes to a cheaper printer that happens to have problems with the ink.

Etc. Etc.

The problem isn't WotC. The WotC I knew didn't treat it's customers this way. The problem is Hasbro.

I'm not say I disagree with everything here but having played 4e several times and run it, I can't say I find it anymore incomplete than say, Mutants and Masterminds or Castles and Crusades.

It doesn't have everything previous editions did but having the barbarian half-orc isn't a sign of a complete game to me.

Other opinions?

 

[MerricB]

I'm not say I disagree with everything here but having played 4e several times and run it, I can't say I find it anymore incomplete than say, Mutants and Masterminds or Castles and Crusades.

It doesn't have everything previous editions did but having the barbarian half-orc isn't a sign of a complete game to me.

Other opinions?

No, I quite agree. Indeed, given some of the material in the DMG, it's making the previous editions look incomplete in comparison.

Cheers!

 

[charlesatan]

Oh no! The cynic and optimist are agreeing (again)!

But right now, I do think the game is complete and playable. It just doesn't look "complete" compared to the splatbooks released under the previous version.

As for the business structure, it's not any different than the other companies (i.e. Steve Jackson Games, Alderac--which is even releasing a "3.1 version" of their game, etc.).

Working for a publishing company myself, I can understand why WotC changed printers and how it's not always possible to go back to the previous printer.

 

[Toben the Many]

Well, the thing is that the designers themselves declared that the game is "incomplete", and that they made it that way so that upcoming supplements won't be extra - they'll be core.

They have explained time and time again that the PHB II, MM II, and DMG II will all be "core" books. Meaning that they won't have extraneous information in them. The information in those books will be just as vital and as important as the PHB I.

I put "incomplete" in parentheses above because the designers didn't use that work exactly. Rather, they emphasized the core aspect of the PHB II, III, IV, etc.

I think that the PHB I is complete...but only barely. There are only two Paragon Paths per class - not very many at all. And only four Epic Destinies. So there's not even an Epic Destiny for every class in the core book.

All that said, I have no problem with WotC taking this approach to its brand management. It's long been known that a vast majority of people primarily buy the Core Books and then only buy one or two books after that. So, the idea behind this - to increase the number of Core Books - is a good idea, IMO.

in addition, I feel that I win as a customer as well. in 3e, the core books presented a complete and working system. All of the 3e splatbooks were add-ons that started to make the system become wonky and bloated. Just allowing one or two splatbooks into the game started making it do odd things.

So with 4e, what they gave us instead was a system that works, but is stripped down to its bare minimum. So the upcoming products will (hopefully) allow the current stripped down system to become more robust and give it a longer lifespan before its inevitable bloat.

There is the definite downside of not having certain sacred cow character classes in the books from the start. It's pretty lame and I'll have to think about how I feel about that.

Of course, I could be totally wrong about all of this, and perhaps 4e will get bloated as quickly as 3e did. We'll have to see.

 

[Stalker0]

But right now, I do think the game is complete and playable. It just doesn't look "complete" compared to the splatbooks released under the previous version.

I think this is a very important point. When I think about 3e, I think about the tons of feats and prcs and mechanics I've been given over the 8 years I've played it. Heck...I remember back in the day when we didn't have swift actions!!

Its been so long since I played basic 3e that I don't know if 3e was any more "complete" starting out than 4e is.

Personally I think 4e just needs one good set of splatbooks. I just need another set of new powers, feats, and paragon paths and I think I'll be good to go. We should also start seeing new classes like the swordmage, that will allow people to play the true "blended" archetypes that the current multiclass does not really do well.

 

[charlesatan]

I put "incomplete" in parentheses above because the designers didn't use that work exactly. Rather, they emphasized the core aspect of the PHB II, III, IV, etc.

I don't think they really emphasized that. I mean 3.xx had numerous Monster Manuals as well as the PHB II and DMG II. In many ways, some of the splat books were more essential than the PHB II and DMG II.

I think that the PHB I is complete...but only barely. There are only two Paragon Paths per class - not very many at all. And only four Epic Destinies. So there's not even an Epic Destiny for every class in the core book.

3.0 had little Prestige Classes to begin with and 3.5 doesn't give you a Prestige Class for each class either.

While Paragon Paths are specific, Epic Destinies for me are general enough that any class can benefit from Demigod for example.

There is the definite downside of not having certain sacred cow character classes in the books from the start. It's pretty lame and I'll have to think about how I feel about that.

The problem with "sacred cow" classes (and races) are that not all of them are sacred cows to everyone. We'll all have our favorites and the reality is that not every one of them can fit in one book.

If we're just talking about sacred cow classes, for me they'd have to be the Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, and Rogue (and perhaps not even the Rogue so much). Anything beyond that is gravy.

 

[DanChops]

I think that the PHB I is complete...but only barely. There are only two Paragon Paths per class - not very many at all.

Minor nitpick - there are four Paragon Paths for each class (except the Warlock, which only has three.)

 

[w_earle_wheeler]

I certainly feel that is in incomplete. It was obviously designed with the PHB 2 "expansion" in mind.

However, if I were a totally new player coming to the game, I wouldn't see it that way.

 

[jadrax]

I could be miss-remembering, but wasn't the initial release of 3rd ed just the Players Guide, no DMG or MM?

If so that would be incomplete, whereas 4th ed seems to have everything you need to play a game of D&D available right now.

Indeed, even the 'missing' classes, (which are hardly essential,) can be approximated too with a simple process of renaming/redescribing powers.

 

[DanChops]

Well, the thing is that the designers themselves declared that the game is "incomplete", and that they made it that way so that upcoming supplements won't be extra - they'll be core.

They have explained time and time again that the PHB II, MM II, and DMG II will all be "core" books. Meaning that they won't have extraneous information in them. The information in those books will be just as vital and as important as the PHB I.

I put "incomplete" in parentheses above because the designers didn't use that work exactly. Rather, they emphasized the core aspect of the PHB II, III, IV, etc.

I think that the PHB I is complete...but only barely. There are only two Paragon Paths per class - not very many at all. And only four Epic Destinies. So there's not even an Epic Destiny for every class in the core book.

All that said, I have no problem with WotC taking this approach to its brand management. It's long been known that a vast majority of people primarily buy the Core Books and then only buy one or two books after that. So, the idea behind this - to increase the number of Core Books - is a good idea, IMO.

in addition, I feel that I win as a customer as well. in 3e, the core books presented a complete and working system. All of the 3e splatbooks were add-ons that started to make the system become wonky and bloated. Just allowing one or two splatbooks into the game started making it do odd things.

So with 4e, what they gave us instead was a system that works, but is stripped down to its bare minimum. So the upcoming products will (hopefully) allow the current stripped down system to become more robust and give it a longer lifespan before its inevitable bloat.

There is the definite downside of not having certain sacred cow character classes in the books from the start. It's pretty lame and I'll have to think about how I feel about that.

Of course, I could be totally wrong about all of this, and perhaps 4e will get bloated as quickly as 3e did. We'll have to see.

More substantive response:

I think that there are two different aspects of "completeness" that are being discussed here. One aspect has to do with the system itself - does the game provide the structure and rules necessary to play? The answer to this is, to me at least, clearly yes. You won't need to purchase later PHBs or DMGs in order to play the game; the three core books that we have now are sufficient to run an enjoyable game.

The other aspect has to do with options - are the options presented in the first three core books sufficient to run any sort of fantasy game that one would want? Or even, are they sufficient to duplicate the fantasy game experience offered by previous editions of D&D? The answer to this is, to me at least, clearly no. There are a variety of fantasy experiences that the current 4E rules don't provide options for. (A clear example of this is a nature-themed campaign. We currently have two classes, the ranger and the feylock, that are at all nature themed. It would take some serious re-fluffing of the other classes to make them really fit in to a nature-themed game.)

Now, in my view, this is a wonderful thing, for exactly the reasons that you suggest. The system works great. Sure, there are a few odd balls (skill challenges, I'm looking at you) but by and large the game is very playable and runs very smoothly. This provides the game designers with the opportunity to add content to the future core books that provide additional options without, as you put it, making the game system wonky and bloated. Hopefully, they succeed with this.