Forked Thread: Rate WotC as a company: 4e Complete?

[Rechan]

Didn't GnomeWorks post an example??? I'm just saying.

No?

 

[Vocenoctum]

As for "Hasbro is Hands-Off", if this is the case, then that mean it was 4e's designers who intentionally crafted the GSL to torpedo 3PP and not the lawyers who made the GSL.

The faulty assumption there is that WotC wouldn't have it's own legal staff, or legal opinions outside of the Will Of Hasbro. In a corporate environment, where profit is the motivation, it doesn't mean Hasbro said "hey, you must curb the OGL!", they probably didn't even know what the OGL was.

 

[Imaro]

No?

Uhm no...he/she didn't or no, you don't consider it proof. One is objective...the other is subjective. Whether you agree with it as proof or not doesn't change the fact that it was posted.

 

[Rechan]

Uhm no...he/she didn't or no, you don't consider it proof. One is objective...the other is subjective. Whether you agree with it as proof or not doesn't change the fact that it was posted.

He didn't because what he posted was addressing an entirely different point.

Offensive vs. stating his taste in games is superior.

The post was:

Statement 1 on Topic A

Statement 2 on Topic B.

 

[The Little Raven]

Grab is not grapple, it's been discussed before. From what I recall grapple will be presented on or before the monk.

Oh, you mean no "I spend a couple of feats, and I can completely shut down characters with a basic ability" grapple.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

4e Flight is like 4e Featherfall, curbed to the extent of being thematically worthless in the setting.

Oh, you mean no more "I hit 5th-level, and any melee-based monster is now worthless" flight.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

And that doesn't even address the fact that Flight is a mechanic that is handled by 4th Edition, so your claim that it is gone is false.

Rituals are decent, though some of the costs seem odd. They're a nice addition, and I like some of the mage stuff like prestigitation and such. Shame they didn't give clerics some also. An odd side effect is that mages will probably be the raise dead folks, since they get the ritual's.

Yeah, it'd make sense for the Cleric to get Ritual Caster for free and be trained in Religion, since that'd be the most effective combination to use the Raise Dead ritual.

Huh, good thing they gave the Cleric Ritual Caster and skill training in Religion, eh?

Social Encounters are in the DMG, right? Haven't looked at them or their updates. If they're like Exalted's social combat, it's not a system I care for, but haven't seen it so can't comment.

Not even close to Exalted's Social Combat.

 

[The Little Raven]

As for "Hasbro is Hands-Off", if this is the case, then that mean it was 4e's designers who intentionally crafted the GSL to torpedo 3PP and not the lawyers who made the GSL.

Designer =/= Executive =/= Decision Maker

 

[Rechan]

The faulty assumption there is that WotC wouldn't have it's own legal staff, or legal opinions outside of the Will Of Hasbro. In a corporate environment, where profit is the motivation, it doesn't mean Hasbro said "hey, you must curb the OGL!", they probably didn't even know what the OGL was.

Designer =/= Executive =/= Decision Maker

I'm glad this is apparent. However, whenever discussion of "What WotC Does" comes up, especially with regards to 4e or the GSL, only two "People" are ever talked about.

4e Designers and Hasbro.

It would be nice if, in the discussion of "The EVils of the GSL" it was pointed at WotC lawyers or Executives who made the choices.

 

[lutecius]

Actually, I will question this.

How is putting Psionics in a book that isn't the first three any different than putting the Metallic dragons in a book that isn't the first three?

Not everybody uses metallic dragons. Not everybody uses Psionics. If you want either, you can go pick up a book you Want, which caters to a minority.

I would argue that fighting metallic dragons is even rarer than having psionics in your game. And not putting them in the Core is a simple decision: "Is everyone going to use this? If not, is it worth 12 pages to the MM (the same amount devoted to the Chromatics)?"

Actually, I will question this I’ve seen many more golems, frost giants and metallic dragons in play than psionics.
I don’t care much for dnd legacy, but metallic dragons are certainly more "iconic" and better fit the flavour of most dnd campaigns than psionics or many lame and obscure monsters in the new MM (banshrae, really?)
Half of the MM looks more like some Far-Trek-Wars or Troopers-in-Black gallery than a fantasy bestiary.

Also, now that everything in the MM is supposed to be nasty, ugly and attacked on sight, metallic dragons surely required a less dramatic makeover than angels or dryads.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Oh, you mean no "I spend a couple of feats, and I can completely shut down characters with a basic ability" grapple.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Isn't that my point? That they removed something troublesome, but the fix isn't until later? 3.5 grapple was bleh, but it was mostly the extra's that made it unbearable. Again, grab isn't grapple, they've already said Grapple will come later.

Oh, you mean no more "I hit 5th-level, and any melee-based monster is now worthless" flight.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

A dismissive antagonistic tone does not mean something that is a staple of fantasy hasn't been curtailed. Flight was problematic, so they cut it way back.

Yeah, it'd make sense for the Cleric to get Ritual Caster for free and be trained in Religion, since that'd be the most effective combination to use the Raise Dead ritual.

Huh, good thing they gave the Cleric Ritual Caster and skill training in Religion, eh?

Wizards get ritual casting, they get religion (if they want it) and they get FREE rituals as they gain levels. So, wizards have the edge, IMO. I'm not even sure why you're arguing with me since I said I liked rituals.

Not even close to Exalted's Social Combat.

Okie dokie.

 

[Imaro]

Actually, I will question this I’ve seen many more golems, frost giants and metallic dragons in play than psionics.
I don’t care much for dnd legacy, but metallic dragons are certainly more "iconic" and better fit the flavour of most dnd campaigns than psionics or many lame and obscure monsters in the new MM (banshrae, really?)
Half of the MM looks more like some Far-Trek-Wars or Troopers-in-Black gallery than a fantasy bestiary.

Also, now that everything in the MM is supposed to be nasty, ugly and attacked on sight, metallic dragons surely required a less dramatic makeover than angels or dryads.

You forgot Unicorns...because evrybody knows if there was an iconic monster that everyone fought it was those dang-blasted unicorns...I totally understand how they as well as a few others beat out metallic dragons...