Forked Thread: The Great Wheel

[malraux]

The Great Wheel worked finely for Planescape, which took the alignment-based arrangement and cosmic symmetry, and ran with it (more successfully in some places than in others - can anyone say anything interesting about Bytopia, for example?).

However, just as Planescape in my opinion suffered, if you used it merely as a "transitional setting" for plane-hopping primes, I think forcing the Great Wheel on general settings also hurt them. Not all things will go with each other, and no matter how nice fine, dark chocolate (PS) is, it's going to suck if you're putting it into your stew (your own setting).

This. The great wheel and PS go well together. But if you aren't running PS, you've got a lot of cosmological overhead.

 

[The Little Raven]

This. The great wheel and PS go well together. But if you aren't running PS, you've got a lot of cosmological overhead.

Plus, PS came with all that baggage like Cant. I don't want to take a language course just to understand what a PS fanatic is saying at the gaming table, or simply to be able to get through a book about the planes.

And of course, no Great Wheel discussion is complete without Professor Cirno and his "I'M SO CLEVER WHEN I IGNORE FACTS" cosmology picture.

 

[Imaro]

I would've liked 4e's cosmology if it wasn't so similar to Exalted and if White Wolf hadn't taken the same ideas and made them infinitely more interesting to read about.

Now Planescape, that was one of the most innovative and imaginative settings for D&D ever produced. And Cant was cool (besides it was only like a half page of words total...though some try to make it seem like there was a cant dictionary...400pgs long. And just like the mantra repeated for 4e...you could just houserule it out...Not nearly as big a deal as some try to make it out to be.

I also thought this was the one setting that made alignment cool along the lines of Gaynor the Damned and the Eternal Champion...In fact much as some might deny it, Planescape was IMHO a great Sword & Sorcery setting in the vein of Moorcock's multiverse.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Plus, PS came with all that baggage like Cant. I don't want to take a language course just to understand what a PS fanatic is saying at the gaming table, or simply to be able to get through a book about the planes.

Congrats! You're the first person I've known ever - ever - to dislike Cant. You're are not, however, the first one to believe half a page somehow equates to a full language course. That title belongs to almost every college student in existence.

 

[Glyfair]

Congrats! You're the first person I've known ever - ever - to dislike Cant. You're are not, however, the first one to believe half a page somehow equates to a full language course. That title belongs to almost every college student in existence.

I have heard and seen many people complain about Cant. In fact, I picked up a handful of Planescape books that were heavy with Cant, which made them a headache to try to read.

As an occasional bit thrown in to add color, I could handle it. Groups could focus on it as much as they pleased. As something that often permeated the books, it was a major drawback to the setting.

 

[Shemeska]

Plus, PS came with all that baggage like Cant. I don't want to take a language course just to understand what a PS fanatic is saying at the gaming table, or simply to be able to get through a book about the planes.

Nice hyperbole Mourn. It was largely just those books focused on Sigil that had any large amount of Cant included, and within the setting itself, that dialect was itself mostly confined to residents of Sigil as well. They didn't have every random balor or archon talking with a Sigilian accent and its language quirks.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

It was largely just those books focused on Sigil that had any large amount of Cant included, and within the setting itself, that dialect was itself mostly confined to residents of Sigil as well.

I picked up the first three boxed sets. I hoped the cant would get minimized but it didn't. I gave up on Planescape and eBayed the boxes a few years later, for quite a pretty penny, because I didn't care for it. It is the only TSR setting I don't own a thing for. And I won't, I dislike the cant. I never bought anything involving Sigil but what I had bought had enough of the cant to turn me off strongly . . . sure the cant wasn't "focused" on, but it was there.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

Congrats! You're the first person I've known ever - ever - to dislike Cant.

How on Earth did you manage that? Cant is one of the most disliked things about Planescape, and people have been complaining about it ever since PS appeared. (It doesn't bother me, but it does bother a lot of people.)

Also, I have to agree with Little Raven about that cosmology picture; it's a strawman.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

How on Earth did you manage that? Cant is one of the most disliked things about Planescape, and people have been complaining about it ever since PS appeared. (It doesn't bother me, but it does bother a lot of people.)

Also, I have to agree with Little Raven about that cosmology picture; it's a strawman.

As this is text and you can't see me shrug, let it be known - I just shrugged. Perhaps I just got lucky? I love the Cant, as does most everyone I know. Keep in mind, I wasn't exactly internet savvy when Planescape came out.

As for the picture, it's not really a strawman because it's not meant to be used for arguing. I saw it and laughed, and saved it. I saw this topic and thought "Hey that picture I laughed at would be great here" and posted it. Not everything has some greater meaning or purpose; sometimes pictures are there for people (perhaps select individuals) to laugh at.

I ain't recanting my City of Brass = Walmart comment, though.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I know little about Planescape, but if I understand it correctly, it meant the players were "plane-walking" from day one, right? does this also mean from level 1?

I think this would change a lot on how a game deals with the planes.

4E core rules don't assume you visit a lot of planes at lower levels. The idea of the tiers is you start local and expand out. There is no hand-holding in saying "At paragon level you can start traveling the planes". It's just "now that you have saved enough kingdoms and damsels in distress, it's time for something new - here come the planes!"

Hand-Holding are spells like "Avoid Planar Effects".