[forked thread] What constitutes an edition war?

[Raven Crowking]

It's more a "know it when I see it" for me, but I don't really mind the "hot" edition war, so much--at least as long it is honest about what it is, and can keep a bit of tongue in cheek.

No, what irritates me about it is the thing that isn't called out (because it really can't be), and that is the passive/aggressive snark, in the "cold" edition war, that spills over repeatedly into topics where it barely has a plausible deniable reason to even be on topic.

If the hot version seems to flare up more than is reasonable, look to the cold version for maintaining tension and derailing useful conversation whenever it can. It is not that "haters gotta hate." Rather it is, some people just gotta try to score a shot and get off with no consequences.

And while I can't positively identify the boundaries of an edition war, I can positively identify a subset of edition warriors: Anyone that frequently comments on a particular edition of a game, but never has anything positive to say about, beyond the occasional backhand compliment, is practicing edition war. An honest critic would have either said his piece some time ago and not feel the need to revisit all the time, or would have at least a few positive aspects that keep them engaged in the conversation. In many edition wars, whoever else finds themselves sucked in, you can often identify such a relentlessly negative individual in the early sniping.

Right you are, CJ! And I accept the refined definition:

An edition war is what happens when someone else (probably willfully) misinterprets your perfectly innocent post about how much cooler your game is than theirs as some kind of "attack" on their game.

Then they engage in maintaining tension and derailing useful conversation by continuing to follow up on your perfectly innocent post, no doubt to score a shot and get off with no consequences. Clearly, your perfectly innocent post was on topic, and those darn edition warriors are threadcrapping by following up on it!

Oddly enough, although many people engage in edition wars, few of them are actually "edition warriors" -- it is always someone else who is responsible! They can usually be identified because they don't let you have the last word with another perfectly innocent post!

 

[DoctorNick]

You see, this is, in my opinion, the sort of attitude and response that really generates edition wars. It's not that someone says 1e is better than 4e (it is), that beer is better than coffee (it is), or that lemurs are cooler than monkeys (they are). It's that someone thinks that someone else's subjective opinion on the matter can be wrong and then feels the need to call shenanigans on it that kicks the thread down the edition war spiral.

This is a great post. How can I argue with: "If you disagree with me, YOU'RE THE ONE DOING IT!"?

Anyway, there's no need to worry. I know what a subjective opinion is. I'm not arguing that your preferences are wrong (they are). I'm arguing that your reasons for having your opinions are factually incorrect. 4e is Dungeons and Dragons, it's not "dumbed down" it's not all that complex and it's not WoW on paper.

It's not all that different from Basic with a unified mechanic and cleaned up rules and much more awesome (THIS ENTIRE POST IS JUST MY SUBJECTIVE OPINION!!!)

 

[Elf Witch]

This is a great post. How can I argue with: "If you disagree with me, YOU'RE THE ONE DOING IT!"?

Anyway, there's no need to worry. I know what a subjective opinion is. I'm not arguing that your preferences are wrong (they are). I'm arguing that your reasons for having your opinions are factually incorrect. 4e is Dungeons and Dragons, it's not "dumbed down" it's not all that complex and it's not WoW on paper.

It's not all that different from Basic with a unified mechanic and cleaned up rules and much more awesome (THIS ENTIRE POST IS JUST MY SUBJECTIVE OPINION!!!)

Do you see what you are doing? I have watched you get kind of angry over anyone who has a negative opinion of 4E.

I have a friend who hates 3E he still plays AD&D and for years he would say that 3E was not real DnD that it had been turned into a video game.

At first I used to argue with him and then I realized it was fruitless because to him it was not DnD and it felt to video game for him. He was not wrong because this is how he felt about it.

I came to the realization that in these kind of discussions there is no right or wrong when talking about subjective opinions.

I don't like 4E because of the changes. To me they made it not DnD and they made it feel to much like a video game for my taste.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Right you are, CJ! And I accept the refined definition:

An edition war is what happens when someone else (probably willfully) misinterprets your perfectly innocent post about how much cooler your game is than theirs as some kind of "attack" on their game.

Then they engage in maintaining tension and derailing useful conversation by continuing to follow up on your perfectly innocent post, no doubt to score a shot and get off with no consequences. Clearly, your perfectly innocent post was on topic, and those darn edition warriors are threadcrapping by following up on it!

Oddly enough, although many people engage in edition wars, few of them are actually "edition warriors" -- it is always someone else who is responsible! They can usually be identified because they don't let you have the last word with another perfectly innocent post!

It the is the last word element that is usually the problem.

 

[Doug McCrae]

It the is the last word element that is usually the problem.

I disagree.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Right you are, CJ! And I accept the refined definition ...

Edition warring overlaps with some other negative forum behaviors, but it is not those behaviors. Nor is all snark or passive/aggressiveness a sign of an edition warrior.

Nor should either one be confused with the questionable but oft-seen debate tactic of screaming "hater" or "fanboy" (depending upon ones' perspective of the given subject, alternate spellings available) at the first sign that two other people might be having an honest disagreement but getting along just fine. "You just say that because you ..." is as bad as, "I'm not saying X, but". Maybe worse, since it often has no reasonable basis.

Some people simply enjoy derailing conversations, full stop. Exactly why that is so, and how they go about it, could consume multiple volumes. If this, as is claimed several times in this topic so far, is correlated with strong emotions, I suggest that the emotions are as much an effect as a cause. When the emotions are the effect, it is not about the topic anymore, but the perceived dishonesty or rabble rousing or trollish behavior of the current antagonist.

 

[billd91]

I'm arguing that your reasons for having your opinions are factually incorrect.

Oh really? Am I factually incorrect when I say that the powers of 4e remind me of City of Heroes? They do. They may not remind you of them, but then, that's why the impressions and connects are subjective, not objective. There are virtually no facts that are subject to significant dispute.

Does the repeated use of at will powers once other powers are expended in an encounter against a solo with gobs of hit points remind some players of repeatedly hitting primary attacks in WOW? Probably. Is that a fact subject to dispute? Not really, their feelings are their feelings.

There's a huge conceit in thinking that "facts" underlying opinions may be incorrect. Most often the facts simply are that someone holds the feelings they hold. They may be based on a superficial impression or an unusual experience, but that doesn't make them wrong. Every time I hear "Break Up Song" by the Greg Kihn band, I think of issue #135 of the X-Men. It feels very X-Men 135 to me. There's no fact that you can claim to disprove that "Break Up Song" is X-Men 135. The two things only have a connection within my personal experiences.

 

[Elf Witch]

It beats you getting mad because someone else likes 4e.

I don't get mad if someone likes 4E. I have another friend who loves 4E and we often talk about our games. For his birthday I bought him a 4E game book.

He understands why I don't like 4E and I understand why he likes it so much. Neither of us think the other is wrong.

He does tease me about how I just hate the number 4 because I also dislike 4E Shadowrun. He had a T shirt made for me with the number 4 with a big circle with an x through it.

I have come to realize that edition wars are pointless there is no winning. There are no facts that are indisputable when it comes to taste in RPGs.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Case in point, the thread this branched from. It's ok to say 4e is dumbed down, and an MMORPG, and WoW, and a toy, and so on, and so forth.

Wait someone is saying disparaging things about other editions? Time to break out the red text!

Oh the red text is flying on the other thread and I would say the banhammer is being wound up as we speak.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I disagree.

Can't resist having the last word.