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Forked Thread: What is WOTC's Goal with the GSL?


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Speculative that the OGL has the same effect as free RPGA memberships. They're two entirely different things. One is a contract allowing the use of WOTC's IP by other companies. The other is an organization for players of those systems to track their game play and get quality adjudication. There's no relationship between them beyond the fact that they are instituted by WOTC for roleplaying. Besides that, it still puts you in the position of having to prove both that 1) they can be compared and 2) the RPGA makes money for WOTC, thus putting you further back, taking two steps back just to go one step forward. It's best just to stick to proving the OGL makes money for WOTC.

In short, it proves absolutely nothing, and in fact is nothing more than a red herring.
 
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It sounds like you don't believe loss leaders exist. I don't know what I would have to do to convince you business take on loss leaders rationally on a daily basis.

But there is a clear comparison. Both are giveaways of company services or products with the intent to create something of a virtuous cycle that grows not only the entire hobby but more importantly customers of WotC's priced products. The success of the RPGA or the OGL at doing this are not necessarily equal.

The RPGA does not directly bring in money to WotC, I didn't imply that it did and you can't pin me into such a corner. But if you look at where the RPGA had been organized with WotC's hierarchy, you will get a clearer idea at why WotC is pleased with funneling money into an operation that does not bring in returns. The RPGA had long been stuck under marketing. It is essentially accounted for as an advertising expense.

This is my view of how the OGL can be similar. It was (among other purposes) functionally a method to promote a WotC game system as attractive to other publishers. That when enough publishers signed on to produce material using the underlying game mechanics, a virtuous cycle would begin growing not only customers for WotC priced products but growing the entire depressed RPG hobby. It is my belief that, like the RPGA, the OGL can be viewed as an experimental marketing expense.
 

The question is how WOTC has benefited financially from the OGL in practice.
You changed the question that would lead to only one answer for your own and WotC's validation: the bottom line (i.e., $$$).

If that's the case, why even bother to publish and release a ROYALTY-FREE license? It's more profitable to offer exclusive FEE-BASED licensing, even if they have to hire one person to handle licensing of their brand.

Hmm.... :erm:
 

I'd add to what Eric Anondson said - it seems pretty clear that Ryan Dancey doubted anyone could produce a PHB, based on reprinting the SRD, that would compete with WoTC for sales. I don't know how well Mongoose did with its pocket handbooks - but maybe they show that Ryan Dancey turned out to be wrong. Not impossible.

In any event, I think Eric Anondson is basically right. The OGL, and the whole idea of "network externalities", is a marketing notion - the idea is to create customers for WoTC products. In this respect the comparison to the RPGA is quite apt.

Did it fail? Hard to say without seeing the company's accounts and market research. The apparent success of what are, in effect, "variant SRDs" - Conan OGL, Arcana Evolved/Unearthed, Iron Heroes, etc - may show that Dancey was wrong in his estimation of the degree to which the multiplication of RPG systems was an unhappy burden resulting from the constraints of IP law, rather than a demand-driven phenomenon.

If there really is more demand for variant mechanics than Dancey thought, it does make sense (from WoTC's point of view) to try and tighten up the degree of such variation (eg via the "no redefinition" clauses in the OGL), whilst still having the game be open enough to enable the sort of 3pp support that will grow the market for sales of D&D products.
 

It sounds like you don't believe loss leaders exist. I don't know what I would have to do to convince you business take on loss leaders rationally on a daily basis.
I'm a firm believer in loss leading sales. What's happening here is that words are being shoved into my mouth. I never said nor implied what you are attributing to me.

But there is a clear comparison. Both are giveaways of company services or products with the intent to create something of a virtuous cycle that grows not only the entire hobby but more importantly customers of WotC's priced products. The success of the RPGA or the OGL at doing this are not necessarily equal.

The RPGA does not directly bring in money to WotC, I didn't imply that it did and you can't pin me into such a corner. But if you look at where the RPGA had been organized with WotC's hierarchy, you will get a clearer idea at why WotC is pleased with funneling money into an operation that does not bring in returns. The RPGA had long been stuck under marketing. It is essentially accounted for as an advertising expense.

This is my view of how the OGL can be similar. It was (among other purposes) functionally a method to promote a WotC game system as attractive to other publishers. That when enough publishers signed on to produce material using the underlying game mechanics, a virtuous cycle would begin growing not only customers for WotC priced products but growing the entire depressed RPG hobby. It is my belief that, like the RPGA, the OGL can be viewed as an experimental marketing expense.
You're comparing apples and oranges. Yes, they are both fruits, but they're not the same. What you're pointing out is the theory behind it. Like I said, this conversation has been trampling that ground over and over from thread to thread. What I want is proof of how the OGL has succeeded in that area for WOTC. Otherwise what we have is a bunch of people with opinions, myself included, and no real facts. So your yes has no more weight or value than my no until you can prove that WOTC financially benefited from the OGL. This whole discussion got to this point because of my claim that the OGL did not make money for WOTC. You all insist I'm wrong simply because the theory is successful in other mostly unrelated areas. What the OGL was meant to be and what it ended up being in practice are also two different things.

You changed the question that would lead to only one answer for your own and WotC's validation: the bottom line (i.e., $$$).

If that's the case, why even bother to publish and release a ROYALTY-FREE license? It's more profitable to offer exclusive FEE-BASED licensing, even if they have to hire one person to handle licensing of their brand.

Hmm.... :erm:
No, I didn't change the question. If you have been reading my posts, the question has remained the same. Yes, I am looking for validation that it has affected WOTC's bottom line. You make it look like it's a crime to ask such a thing. I'm not questioning the theory of royalty-free loss leader products. I am only questioning whether the OGL ever achieved that goal to WOTC's benefit. Yes, it cost WOTC money. Yes, it spread the product around. But my claim is that no, it did not do anything significant for WOTC.

Unless someone has a legitimate and direct response to my query, then don't bother responding. This whole discussion is just running in circles on matters that have nothing to do with what I'm asking about. I know the theory. I believe in the theory. You're preaching to the converted. I'm not, nor have I ever been attacking the theory. I'm attacking the effectiveness of the OGL and the OGL only. If you can't establish that WOTC benefited from the OGL, then you can't discount my claim that WOTC's motives for the GSL are based on the OGL's failure. If you don't want to go in that direction, then why bother with the discussion?

Otherwise, get back to the point of the thread, which is to discuss WOTC's motives for the GSL.
 
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You completely missed my point.

No, I understand your point. I've been hearing it from the pro-4E crowd since Jan when the GSL was announced.

WOTC spends tons of money developing the game for others to benefit from their research.

And I"m saying that that is the way that the OGL was designed to work. Wizards wanted that from the beginning. The idea is to keep a player close to D&D. Take Conan for example. Mongoose could have created their own system for Conan. They didn't. So the player of Conan stayed close to d20 so whenever they wanted to return to D&D, it wasn't that big of a leap for them.

Contrast that with Exalted. Most Exalted players I've met look down on D&D. I'm one of the few exceptions, those that went back to D&D after playing Exalted for a long time. I love exalted, don't get me wrong, but I was looking for something different and my friends that won't consider a game unless it has "D&D" on the cover wanted to start a new game so I said, "What the heck, why not." Had it not been for them, I would have missed 3.X and that would have been ok with me. I now enjoy 3.X/Pathfinder, but that's for another time.

Players that leave D&D have a hard time returning to D&D. By Wizards giving away the system for free, it is much much easier for players to eventually return to D&D. THAT is their benefit. That is how Wizards makes money off of the OGL.
 

The question is how WOTC has benefited financially from the OGL in practice. Answer it how you like. Just keep the speculation out and keep out talk of what it was supposed to do. We've already trampled all over that ground.

The OGL worked on the theory that rising water lifts all boats or if you prefer it grew the pie so that a smaller piece of a larger pie is larger than the entirety of a smaller pie. Whether this happened or not cannot be proven you either believe in the theory or you don't. You say you believe the theory but then you ask for impossible proof that it worked. I believe it worked because 3E revitalized D&D from 2E. Was that just better management, maybe, I don't know. Without some means to compare sales with and without the OGL there will never be proof one way or the other.
 
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Corjay, what are you trying to spin visavi the GSL?

Obviously it is intended to return control back to Wizards. The real issue, however, if this is in any way good for us roleplayers, the industry, or even Wizards itself.

The fact is that we can only speculate on what Wizards aims are for the GSL, and I don't see this discussion as any better than other kinds of speculation.

Fact #2 is that the GSL is a bit of a publicity disaster no matter how you roll it.

Fact #3 is that the GSL in its current incarnation doesn't prevent the honey-trap scenario, and that as long as it won't, will remain a complete failure (per the Clark/Necro definition).

You or me speculating on Wizards aims for the GSL isn't worth anything. Only Wizards changing the GSL enough to prevent it in the future from being abused by Wizards to kill off the entire 3PP market is.

Nothing you can say or do will change this. Either Wizards relents or they don't.

Discussing the finer points of the GSL will only confuse the issue. And, heavens forbid, fool someone into thinking it is actually reasonable.

Let's wait for the revision, I say.



Cheers,
Zapp
 

No, I didn't change the question. If you have been reading my posts, the question has remained the same. Yes, I am looking for validation that it has affected WOTC's bottom line. You make it look like it's a crime to ask such a thing. I'm not questioning the theory of royalty-free loss leader products. I am only questioning whether the OGL ever achieved that goal to WOTC's benefit. Yes, it cost WOTC money. Yes, it spread the product around. But my claim is that no, it did not do anything significant for WOTC.
Oh, no. It's not a crime to ask. I generally dislike people seeking validation for their position or opinion and not want to hear other people's positions.
 

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