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Forked Thread: What is WOTC's Goal with the GSL?

Now, I'm not a lawyer, but to me this sounds like a licensee is signing over some of their rights to sue WotC for specific circumstances. As discussed previously, the GSL has a number of ways that Wizards can sue the licensee, but the licensee has to sign over certain right to sue back? That is not the "safe harbor" type of environment of Wizards of 8 years ago.
Here is the whole of 10.3:

Licensee will assist Wizards to the extent necessary or as requested by Wizards to protect any of Wizards’ rights in and to Wizards Intellectual Property. Wizards will reimburse Licensee for any reasonable out-of-pocket costs incurred as a result of providing such assistance, provided that Wizards has approved such costs in advance. Licensee will not institute any suit or take any action on account of any such infringements or imitations, or otherwise institute any suit or take any action relating to Wizards Intellectual Property. Licensee will take no action that will harm, misuse or bring into disrepute the activities, properties or products of Wizards or Wizards Intellectual Property.​

It is pretty clear that "such infringements or imitations" is referring to violations of WoTC IP, which the licencee is promising to help WoTC protect.

Thus, when the licencee promises that s/he "will not institute any suit or take any action on account of any such infringements or imitations" s/he is promising not to act unilaterally to protect WoTC IP. This is a waiver of certain rights against 3rd parties. It is not a waiver of rights against WoTC.
 

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Personal rule of mine, Corjay. Treat everyone like they are well informed until they prove otherwise or tell me to act otherwise. You have been making claims about things that lead me to believe that you thought you were well informed. I was wrong. So, changing modes ...
I came from the assumption of knowing general business practices and contracts while finding myself completely lost in regard to the gaming industry. While business rules still apply, there have been factors popping up unique to the gaming industry that I was not familiar with. I am making an effort not to continue to be assumptive regarding gaming companies.

Why was the OGL created? To keep companies from suing each other while allowing other companies that would otherwise go copyright happy. TSR (or T as they were called in the 90's because they were so sue happy) filed quite a few law suits against companies that went copyright. TSR lost almost off of them. The few that TSR did win is when another company blatently violated TSR IP. All in all it cost TSR quite a bit of money with very little gain. When WotC took over they didn't want to fall in the same sue trap. So they created a "safe haven" for other companies to publish in. The license basicly said, "You follow a few simple rules and we will not sue you." It kept WotC from having to sue people left and right and it kept other companies within the bounds that WotC wanted. WotC only had a few instances of things going wrong and they were easily handled.

The license allowed WotC to have certain things all to themselves and certain other things any other company could do with as they wish. Things like Beholders or skill tricks or greyhawk were never touched by another company. And 3PPs played nice as a return favor to WotC.
I think Pemerton has one half of the story and you have the other here. They don't appear mutually exclusive. I agree with both.

Why did WotC give away so much of the system? One of Dancey's ideas is that it is NOT other companies or other games that hurt TSR (and the RPG industry as a whole) but competing systems. Two prime examples of this are Spelljammer and the Dragonlance SAGA system. Both Spelljammer, basicly being D&D in space, and the SAGA systems were different from D&D's core system. So you basicly had two D&D games that you couldn't easily port over material. This created market "inefficiency" according to Dancey. By getting everyone under the same roof (er system), there will be increased revenue for WotC. D&D has the name recognition and WotC has the distribution capabilities and capital for larger print runs then anyone else in the industry. They can be places where no one else can and they will be able to make more money then anyone else. All the while still giving smaller companies the chance to make a decent buck and the chance to make something of themselves.
I assume by the examples you put forth that you mean competing systems within the same company (Spelljammer and Dragonlance being from the same company), yet you're talking about competition between systems outside the company, so I'm confused. Competition is good outside the company, but yes, it is bad for a company to compete against itself so openly in roleplaying systems, because it's a division of resources and no inherent certainty in the absence of focus. (It's different for trading card games, because they're very rigid, so in-house competition can be withstood, but that's a different issue.) In other words, as a personal request, could you please clarify?

So how is this different with the (current) GSL? Excellent question.
One of the first things that Paizo did after losing the magazines was take ome of the classic monsters and redefining them. In Pathfinder #1 they turned Goblins into something alot closer to the Grimlins from the movie Grimlins/Grimlins 2. Mongoose's first product line was all about taking various monsters and expanding upon them. Paizo, if they went 4E, would definitely be in violation of this. Mongoose could be. This point puts a real damper on creativity. This is a change from the d20 license.
I agree with your view of WOTC's motive in this case, but I disagree about it violating creativity of any company. There's nothing that stops those companies from creating those exact same creatures under entirely different names.

This is a point of serious confusion. So 4.1 says I can't redefine something, but 5.7 says I can't make it look like it came from their picture. Back to the goblin example, how can a company have a picture of a goblin that is both not derived from WotC's artwork and without redefining the goblin? Sounds like a catch 22 to me.

The OGL was in plain simple language. But the GSL is meant to be confusing?
That is using language of copyright law. In fact, much of the GSL is using language defined in copyright and other law. I would assume that they did it that way so that they don't have to list the definitions. Not very efficient, but if you know the laws that they come from it's not too hard to understand. In copyright law, a "derivative work" means that it imitates the image, setting up the same characters or same scene. They can use the same type of creature, they just can't use the same creature dressed the same. It has to be unique with unique features. It's just like depicting the same type of castle. They can depict the same type of castle (same kind of motifs, same kind of spires, same kind of windows, same kind of stones, even with all the same colors), but it has to be a different castle.

Now, I'm not a lawyer, but to me this sounds like a licensee is signing over some of their rights to sue WotC for specific circumstances. As discussed previously, the GSL has a number of ways that Wizards can sue the licensee, but the licensee has to sign over certain right to sue back? That is not the "safe harbor" type of environment of Wizards of 8 years ago. This shows a definite shift in priorities and make some (myself included) wonder if WotC's returning to the days of T. This shift also begs the question as to where future shifts will be going to.
No. As I pointed out in the thread this one was forked from, what that is saying is that the company can't sue an infringer for violations against WOTC's material just because it appears in their game as well. This keeps the red tape down and keeps the licensee from unnecessarily clashing with WOTC. It has nothing to do with the licensee bringing suit against WOTC. It also has the side effect of protecting the infringer from multiple suits from different companies for the same infringement. In some cases WOTC may not want to bring suit against a company, and they may want their word to the infringer that they're not going to sue to mean something. Perhaps they might see value in an infringer's work and actually want to use the infringer. At the very least, it gives WOTC the sole right and ability to decide the fate of the infringer.
 
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We aren't lording anything over you. We are asking you to become informed, to not speak with authority about subjects you are uninformed about. I don't think that is unreasonable.
I do not understand what you are saying here. How does licenses interact with an industry? The OGL and d20STL are separate licenses covering two unrelated things. The OGL provides license to copyrighted material. The d20STL provides access to trademarks. The only reason they interact is because the d20STL directly references the OGL and has terms and conditions based on content licenesed by the OGL. The d20STL needs the OGL. The OGL does not reciprocate this need. From your earlier writing you did not seem to understand this.
This attitude is the only reason I haven't left the thread. The problem is how do we know what you don't know? We know what we know by experiencing it for the last 8 years. It's not like we read a book/website about it. Nor is there a single book/website to point you at.
And this attitude makes it hard to stay. If you want to be taken seriously that you want to understand, this sarcasm is inappropriate. Nothing in dmccoy's or my posts have implied we are mountain top sitting gurus of open licensing. Don't treat us disrespectfully if you want respect in return.
Coming from the very first person to attack me in this forum in my very first discussion on the GSL and always more than happy to make personal attacks against me. If it came from dmccoy, I might actually consider it.
 

In any event, the proven existence of a market for multiple mechanical systems helps explain (in my opinion) why WoTC have tried this time round to set up a licensing regime that makes it harder to do something that the OGL made trivially easy, namely, producing variant systems that are easily marketable to WoTC's customers.
Are you saying that the existence of multiple mechanical systems -- all derived from 3.Xe SRD -- is the reason WotC is taking a loss in the past years? Never mind the fact that in the previous years, the RPG market have been in a slump for everyone across the board.

So, instead of improving oneself in the level playing field, they change the playing field in their favor, forcing many major 3PP and supporters of d20STL/OGL out of their "sandbox"? They got to let go of such elitist attitude.
 

Coming from the very first person to attack me in this forum in my very first discussion on the GSL and always more than happy to make personal attacks against me. If it came from dmccoy, I might actually consider it.

Well, not everyday I get called the diplomatic one. *marks date on calender* jmucchiello and I haven't been attacking you. It is difficult to read tone of voice over pure text so it is easy to misconstrude stuff as attacking or condescending or etc when none was intended. Now that we're more aware of your specific knowledge and the gaps in it, we can work with that. And yes, the gaming industry has a number of odd quirks.

Quirk 1: Clear licenses/contracts mean alot. Most companies can't afford to visit a lawyer on a regular basis, because most are run by a guy in his basement working off of a shoe string budget and hoping to have enough to show for it to keep his wife happy. Not many understand the complexities of copyright law. I think the only ones outside Wizards that understands it very well are Necromancer Games and Kenzer & Co. Why? Because they're both run by lawyers. I know Kenzer knows it quite well since they've been doing it since 2E D&D and won some of the forementioned TSR lawsuits.

I assume by the examples you put forth that you mean competing systems within the same company (Spelljammer and Dragonlance being from the same company), yet you're talking about competition between systems outside the company, so I'm confused. Competition is good outside the company, but yes, it is bad for a company to compete against itself so openly in roleplaying systems, because it's a division of resources and no inherent certainty in the absence of focus. (It's different for trading card games, because they're very rigid, so in-house competition can be withstood, but that's a different issue.) In other words, as a personal request, could you please clarify?

Alrighty. The lines between companies are secondary to the lines between game systems. Comparison: HDDVD vs Blueray. Does it matter which system is better? No. Does it matter which one holds more info per disc? No. Does it matter which titles are available on HDDVD and which are on Blueray? No (Technically a company could have been making movies for both if they played their cards right.) What matters is market share. Blueray eventually won because one of the last few movie studios on HDDVD saw the number of units (aka potential buyers) for theirs was substantially lower then Bluerays.

Bringing that back around to the gaming industry. WotC D&D currently has somewhere between 1/2 and 1/3 of the market. Meanwhile a mere 10 years ago, White Wolf was outselling TSR. Two things are well known in the gaming industry: 1) D&D is the gateway game to the rest of the industry, and 2) the further you get from D&D, the less likely you are to return to D&D. Wizards learned that second tidbit from studies conducted after their takeover of TSR. Dancey's idea for stopping that 2nd half by reducing the barrier of returning, different systems.

Ever listen to what the 3.5 grognards are saying as to why they do not want to upgrade to 4E. Many of them say the reason is, "We have plenty of 3.5 books, why should I start over." Translation: The cost of starting over with an incompatable system is higher then they want to pay. Effectively, Wizards proved Dancey's theory. That is why Pathfinder will be a success. You'll note that the fluff and the system of 4E is different, to different for crossover material. The cost of starting over would be lower if the FRCS was similar. You can't take the fluff from the book "Races of Faerun" and apply it to 4E FR. The cost of starting over would be lower if the planes worked the same. And on and on.

Back to Dancey's theory. The jump back to D&D after a gamer gets tired of D&D and goes elsewhere would be easier if the D&D system was used for much more then ... well, D&D. Say it was used to for a spy game. Spycraft is a modern game that uses the same basic system as D&D, but its uses a modern adaptation of that system (aka d20 modern). Effectively, they means that Wizards "competitors" were really their "allies." Ever single company that uses the d20 system in a different way then Wizards is providing an outlit for gamers that were going to leave D&D anyways. By keeping those gamers close, those gamers are more likely to return to D&D when they're done taking their strole away from D&D. Gamers are going to leave D&D from time to time (Wizards knows this and isn't upset by this). They just want those customers using their system the whole time.

The theory worked.

I agree with your view of WOTC's motive in this case, but I disagree about it violating creativity of any company. There's nothing that stops those companies from creating those exact same creatures under entirely different names.

Oh sure. But then, you don't have a different adaptation of a monster, you have a different monster. You aren't "owning" something and making "your take" on it distinctive; you're creating a new monster manual. Plus, they're the stuff that Wizards doesn't own. Wizards doesn't own the word Goblin. Why does everyone else have to agree that Wizards interpretation of the Goblin is the correct one? When you talk to a fellow D&D gamer, you talk about Goblin-squashing, Wack-a-gnoll, or Black Dragon Slaying, you know what they're talking about. Now if another game started talking about Magraduke-slashing, Kibble-punching, and Fusha Dragon Smacking, the first thing you'd ask the person is, "Are you sure you're playing D&D and not Toon?"

Its getting late so I'm going to end this here. Do you get what I'm getting at?
 

As I pointed out in the thread this one was forked from, what that is saying is that the company can't sue an infringer for violations against WOTC's material just because it appears in their game as well. This keeps the red tape down and keeps the licensee from unnecessarily clashing with WOTC. It has nothing to do with the licensee bringing suit against WOTC. It also has the side effect of protecting the infringer from multiple suits from different companies for the same infringement. In some cases WOTC may not want to bring suit against a company, and they may want their word to the infringer that they're not going to sue to mean something. Perhaps they might see value in an infringer's work and actually want to use the infringer. At the very least, it gives WOTC the sole right and ability to decide the fate of the infringer.
I missed your comments in the other thread, but said the same as you have said here a few posts up.

I think there are a few parts of the GSL which are being misconstrued by some of those criticising them (and which are thus creating unrealistic expectations for the revision). This is not a clause that I would expect to change in the revision.
 

Are you saying that the existence of multiple mechanical systems -- all derived from 3.Xe SRD -- is the reason WotC is taking a loss in the past years?
I haven't heard that WoTC has taken a loss (except many years ago in the Primal Order fiasco).

I do think that the proliferation of "variant SRDs" is evidence that Dancey's idea that the d20 system would grow D&D sales was not flawless.

So, instead of improving oneself in the level playing field, they change the playing field in their favor, forcing many major 3PP and supporters of d20STL/OGL out of their "sandbox"? They got to let go of such elitist attitude.
Well, as I said above, WoTC is a wholly-owned subsidiary of a publicly-listed company. It is not a charity. So I think it is unrealistic to expect it to compromise its own sales in order to further the sales of 3pps.

This doesn't mean that WoTC wants 3pps "out of its sandbox". If they wanted that, they wouldn't release a GSL. What it means is that they want 3pps supporting sales of D&D (by producing modules, supplements etc) rather than supporting sales of their own d20 games.
 

Its getting late so I'm going to end this here. Do you get what I'm getting at?
Thank you for the clear responses. Yeah, I get it. :) By the way, I consider you more reasonable for things like this and for actually making an honest effort [read: pure motive] to provide the evidence I ask for.

As for my view of what a personal attack is, it is when a discussion stops focusing on the subject and starts focusing on the speaker. To question a speaker's motives (doing so should only be done when the goal of the discussion is clearly not the resolution of the discussion), to accuse the speaker in the least way, to misrepresent the speaker's argument (After reflection over the post editing, I realized I did this with you by exaggerating your view of WOTC's motives, as exaggeration is still a form of misrepresentation), and making offensive jabs at the speaker (e.g. misrepresenting the speaker's name) are all personal attacks. Arrogance and rhetorical questions are not personal attacks except in the context of focusing on the speaker.

Oh sure. But then, you don't have a different adaptation of a monster, you have a different monster. You aren't "owning" something and making "your take" on it distinctive; you're creating a new monster manual. Plus, they're the stuff that Wizards doesn't own. Wizards doesn't own the word Goblin. Why does everyone else have to agree that Wizards interpretation of the Goblin is the correct one? When you talk to a fellow D&D gamer, you talk about Goblin-squashing, Wack-a-gnoll, or Black Dragon Slaying, you know what they're talking about. Now if another game started talking about Magraduke-slashing, Kibble-punching, and Fusha Dragon Smacking, the first thing you'd ask the person is, "Are you sure you're playing D&D and not Toon?"
So there's too much of a difference between a D&D "goblin" and a "goblin gnome"? They're two different things, but retain the same concept. I would easily call Spielberg Gremlin a "goblin gnome" and there's no way that WOTC can site anyone for violation, because they're two different names. WOTC can't make the claim that the name uses "goblin" because someone could call it a "poggoblinder", but as you can see, it would be meaningless to make the accusation. In other words, you don't have to use a name that doesn't express that it's a goblin. You just can't give it the pure -goblin- name. Sure, it may not seem to be the fairest, but as you brought out, they want people coming back to the game still familiar with the game. They want to create a D&D community where other companies are contributing to it.

To use the floating analogy, which is going to make them float higher? A quart of water in a tall glass, or a quart of water in a stew pot? By giving clear definition to the D&D game mechanics, they're pulling in the walls of the container, making the water level rise.
 
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Well, as I said above, WoTC is a wholly-owned subsidiary of a publicly-listed company. It is not a charity. So I think it is unrealistic to expect it to compromise its own sales in order to further the sales of 3pps.

This doesn't mean that WoTC wants 3pps "out of its sandbox". If they wanted that, they wouldn't release a GSL. What it means is that they want 3pps supporting sales of D&D (by producing modules, supplements etc) rather than supporting sales of their own d20 games.
Well said.
 

I do think that the proliferation of "variant SRDs" is evidence that Dancey's idea that the d20 system would grow D&D sales was not flawless.
:confused:

I think you are misinterpreting Dancey's ideas. Primarily because I recall Mr Dancey claiming that by allowing different d20 games other than D&D would grow the entire RPG pie. Basically that a larger tabletop-RPG pie would benefit WotC far better in the long run than WotC claiming an immense share of a shrinking tabletop-RPG pie. A larger pie filled with SRD-influenced games means more potential customers who might not have considered D&D for whatever reason, but now that they now know the core mechanics of D&D will be much more likely to give it a try hopefully someday.
 

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