Forked Thread: ... with an interesting note about 4th edition

[The Little Raven]

My only reason for even stating that hypothetical was to say that "the core books are in a second printing!" doesn't equal "4e is an unparalleled success, and this has vindicated its decisions because everyone likes it!"

The 4e core books went for their third print-run (third print-run ordered August 2008, 2 months after release) faster than 3.0 went for it's second print-run (second print-run ordered December 2008, 3 months after release), with a larger initial print-run (and probably larger second and third print-runs, but unconfirmed).

It means 4e didn't flop right out of the gate, but there's a lot of room for that "didn't flop" to fluctuate.

By the same period in their respective lifespans, 4e core books are outselling 3.0 core books, even with a depressed dollar, increased production costs, and a growing recession. That's quite a bit more than just "didn't flop right out of the gate."

 

[I'm A Banana]

By the same period in their respective lifespans, 4e core books are outselling 3.0 core books, even with a depressed dollar, increased production costs, and a growing recession.

Does it want a medal?

That's quite a bit more than just "didn't flop right out of the gate"

Not really. But hey, if you want to see 4e as an ultimate success that somehow won a popularity contest with 3e, thus vindicating it in the eyes of all who can see it up on stage with its crown and its scepter and a bouquet of red roses saying "You really like me!" don't let me stop you. I just don't have that much emotionally invested in any edition, and I know core book sales numbers are like Grammy awards: ultimately kind of meaningless.

 

[The Little Raven]

Does it want a medal?

No, but it would like the facts presented accurately. Is that too much to ask?

But hey, if you want to see 4e as an ultimate success that somehow won a popularity contest with 3e, thus vindicating it in the eyes of all who can see it up on stage with its crown and its scepter and a bouquet of red roses saying "You really like me!" don't let me stop you.

It's funny how when I point out objective sales fact, you retreat into some argument that has nothing to do with anything I said. You claim to have no emotionally investment, but comments which attribute thoughts and positions to me that I have not espoused demonstrate otherwise. If you can't deal with objective fact without resorting to hyperbole, then you obviously have more emotional investment than you are willing to admit.

I just don't have that much emotionally invested in any edition, and I know core book sales numbers are like Grammy awards: ultimately kind of meaningless.

This is a crappy analogy. Grammies are like ENnies: awards that don't mean much. Sales figures are like platinum certifications: based on sales, not the votes of some small "academy" group.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It's funny how when I point out objective sales fact, you retreat into some argument that has nothing to do with anything I said.

You're right, I was projecting others' arguments onto you. Sorry about that.

You presented some facts. Those facts are what they are. I still think those facts are kind of meaningless. My greater point is that those facts are kind of meaningless. Sales records of core books are kind of meaningless. Second printing, third printing, one month, seven months, more than 3e, less than 3e, success or failure, it doesn't matter.

I think I was frustrated because I was basically corrected on something that doesn't matter. Sorry I got snippy.

This is a crappy analogy. Grammies are like ENnies: awards that don't mean much. Sales figures are like platinum certifications: based on sales, not the votes of some small "academy" group.

Yeah, that is a better analogy. And like an album "going gold," it's pretty meaningless. It means you appeal to a nation. I think the D&D core books selling a lot would have been a given. If they didn't, it would've been interesting news. They did. No surprises.

 

[Negflar2099]

As a Hasbro shareholder this would be the worst* thing I would want to hear WotC say. Given the amount of hours involved and money spent to bring this edition to market they should certainly hope and want 4E to sell well.

That being said - we are in a recession and that, I believe, is having a large effect on how 4E sells in the short term. Any discussion on 4E sales needs to take into account the overall economic climate.

Seconded on both points. Of course Wizards can't say that they don't care about sales. It's clear they do think about sales but those two concepts (D&D as a good game and D&D as a profit making product) are not mutually exclusive. You can have a truly good and artistic and entertaining game and have it sell well. In fact most of the time you need the first to get the second.

The problem I see is that people will end up ignoring the economy situation to try and make a larger point about how good 4e is or isn't. Or worse they'll use it to make cheap shots against the game's quality. We are in a recession. That's going to affect everything across the board. There's no denying that.

 

[The Little Raven]

Sales records of core books are kind of meaningless.

The sales of the products that produce the most revenue for the product line are meaningless? You have a very odd definition of meaningless in a retail environment.

Sorry I got snippy.

Hey, man, it happens. We're all human, after all. I've been trying my hardest to keep the rhetoric out of the equation.

And like an album "going gold," it's pretty meaningless.

That's where we will always disagree. You say sales are meaningless, but sales are the only objective metric for a product's success in a retail market, which makes them far from meaningless.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The sales of the products that produce the most revenue for the product line are meaningless? You have a very odd definition of meaningless in a retail environment.

In the context of the thread, "meaningless" was mostly referring to "meaingless for those of us who play the thing." As far as you or I or anyone else who doesn't work for WotC is concerned, the sales aren't important. Good core book sales doesn't mean anything for any of us.

That's where we will always disagree. You say sales are meaningless, but sales are the only objective metric for a product's success in a retail market, which makes them far from meaningless.

If the new Kanye West album goes gold, that won't mean anything to any of us music listeners. It doesn't mean we should go out and listen to it. It doesn't mean it's better than his previous albums. It doesn't mean he's going to still be around in 10 years. For the consumers, it's meaningless.

The new D&D core books sold well. That doesn't mean you should go out and play it. It doesn't mean it's better than previous editions. It doesn't mean it's still going to be around in 10 years. For the consumers, it's meaningless.

WotC probably has a bigger investment in knowing what the sales are, but WotC probably also has better information than we do, so our discussions about 4e sales certainly aren't helping THEM learn anything new. Because they also have a bigger investment, they might be more concerned with gaming the numbers a little bit. It's a pretty standard practice, and it makes you look good, and it makes people more interested when they hear about it more.

That kind of goes back to what the OP said. The sales don't matter. 4e is here, it'll be here for a while, and taking joy over the sales success or joy over the sales failure is pretty pointless.

 

[Jack99]

I do not. You brought up this argument and still do not know why and how it realtes to what we were talking about.

I brought it up because it sounded like you were implying (at least indirectly) that WotC had made a small first print run, in order to create hype. The fact that the first print run of 4e was bigger than the print runs of the prior editions, should contradict that. If you weren't implying such a thing, feel free to ignore my posts and get on with whatever you were talking about before I came in here and started rambling.

 

[darjr]

In the context of the thread, "meaningless" was mostly referring to "meaingless for those of us who play the thing." As far as you or I or anyone else who doesn't work for WotC is concerned, the sales aren't important. Good core book sales doesn't mean anything for any of us.

Except it does determine, to a large part, the number of potential players. That does indeed have meaning for quite a lot of us.

Edit: or am I missing something in the thread?

 

[PoeticJustice]

Except it does determine, to a large part, the number of potential players. That does indeed have meaning for quite a lot of us.

Edit: or am I missing something in the thread?

And on that note, I'm encountering a lot of resistance to the new rules. Anecdotal evidence, sure, but Wotc knows they pissed some people off. They probably didn't know how it would be until after all the decisions had been made, but they sure know it now. I think they're response to criticism is that they're attempting to grow the player base by appealing to people who don't game.

Here's hoping it works.