Forked Thread: ... with an interesting note about 4th edition

[Filcher]

Forked from: State of Mongoose 2008... with an interesting note about 4th edition

Taken from State of the Mongoose 2008:
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Dungeons & Dragons 4e
The fourth edition is something of an odd duck for us, and it is no secret that sales thus far have been somewhat behind those for third edition. The game itself is very different from its predecessors.
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From what I've read on ENWorld, I thought 4th edition was selling like hotcakes. This note seems to support what I've been seeing in with my local geeks... that 4th edition isn't doing as well as WotC would have hoped.

Here's a radical idea: what if it doesn't matter how well 4E does? Sales are NOT indicative of the best rule system, right? It isn't a referendum on whether that game "wins" or not, or if I can use it to run awesome freakin' games.

What if Wizards designers came out and said, "Look, we know we pissed some of you off with the choices we made for 4E. We know we'll lose some of you as customers. But we went at this project with our hearts and made it the best game we could. The best D&D we could. You don't have to like it, but that's okay because this is our art, our masterpiece. And it is exactly what we wanted it to be."

Wizards never said you had to love 4E. They never forced you to buy it. If this was an indie publisher making radical changes to the way people game, we would be applauding their courage.

When the hell did D&D become the game that had to appease every gamer?

Sorry for the rant.

 

[malraux]

Poor selling of 4e relative to expectations is a bad sign for a lot of things. If its selling poorly, then its possible WotC/HAS will cut employees, move focus to other areas, etc. It could result not just in 4e supporters losing the edition war, but in DnD getting shelved by HAS.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Forked from: State of Mongoose 2008... with an interesting note about 4th edition



Here's a radical idea: what if it doesn't matter how well 4E does? Sales are NOT indicative of the best rule system, right? It isn't a referendum on whether that game "wins" or not, or if I can use it to run awesome freakin' games.

What if Wizards designers came out and said, "Look, we know we pissed some of you off with the choices we made for 4E. We know we'll lose some of you as customers. But we went at this project with our hearts and made it the best game we could. The best D&D we could. You don't have to like it, but that's okay because this is our art, our masterpiece. And it is exactly what we wanted it to be."

Wizards never said you had to love 4E. They never forced you to buy it. If this was an indie publisher making radical changes to the way people game, we would be applauding their courage.

When the hell did D&D become the game that ]had to appease every gamer?

Sorry for the rant.

The issue of 4E sales being what it is here is because of the fact that some people tend to invoke the hypothetical positive or negative sales of 4E in some sort of political campaign for or against 4E.

As for when the hell D&D became the game that had to appease every gamer came from both 3E's attempt to please everyone and the OGL. I'm personally glad those days are over. I miss the AD&D days when D&D players were happy playing D&D.

 

[Filcher]

I hope you're right and all the attention to "!sales good!/!sales bad!" is kind-hearted gamers worried about the future of their favorite designers and authors ... and not just geek rage schadenfreude.

 

[Imaro]

As for when the hell D&D became the game that had to appease every gamer came from both 3E's attempt to please everyone and the OGL. I'm personally glad those days are over. I miss the AD&D days when D&D players were happy playing D&D.

I'd say the fact that they want to retain around 80% of the marketshare and maximize profits has more to do with...D&D trying to be "the game that had to appease every gamer" than 3e or the OGL. But yeah, it's the previous editions fault...

And now all D&D fans are totally happy playing the current version of D&D, no one's arguing, flaming, switching to other systems and... wait, what are we talking about again?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Here's a radical idea: what if it doesn't matter how well 4E does? Sales are NOT indicative of the best rule system, right? It isn't a referendum on whether that game "wins" or not, or if I can use it to run awesome freakin' games.

Totally true. In another vein, I don't think it matters because 4e is here to stay for the next 5 or so years, no matter WHAT. The only thing bad sales will do is influence the direction of future supplements and perhaps hasten a 5e. If sales plumetted to 0 tomorrow and stayed that way for the next year (which I don't think will happen, because I do think their sales aren't too shabby, this is hyperbole), it would just change what the PHB3 would look like.

What if Wizards designers came out and said, "Look, we know we pissed some of you off with the choices we made for 4E. We know we'll lose some of you as customers. But we went at this project with our hearts and made it the best game we could. The best D&D we could. You don't have to like it, but that's okay because this is our art, our masterpiece. And it is exactly what we wanted it to be."

I don't think they'd say that, though. I don't think this is their darling any more than it is anyone's darling. I'm sure every member of that team had to make compromises on the game they thought 4e should be. They're all very justifiably proud of what they've made, but rest assured, 4e would've looked different if it would've been a labor of love over a labor of profit.

Wizards never said you had to love 4E. They never forced you to buy it. If this was an indie publisher making radical changes to the way people game, we would be applauding their courage.

When the hell did D&D become the game that ]had to appease every gamer?

Sorry for the rant.

I think it became the game that had to please everyone the moment everyone made it such a big success in the tabletop gaming arena.

Tabletop gaming is built on social networks.

If more people are aware of and playing D&D than any other game, it becomes the game you HAVE to play, more or less. Thus, it becomes more important that the game accommodates your style (or at least lets you house rule it to hell and back).

Anyway, that's pop sociology. I actually think part of the reason for 4e's schizophrenia in places is when it tries to please every gamer, so if it was going to be this big of a revolution, they should've just bitten the bullet and revolted rather than trying to rub their bellies and pat their heads at the same time.

 

[The Ghost]

Here's a radical idea: what if it doesn't matter how well 4E does? Sales are NOT indicative of the best rule system, right? It isn't a referendum on whether that game "wins" or not, or if I can use it to run awesome freakin' games.

As a Hasbro shareholder this would be the worst* thing I would want to hear WotC say. Given the amount of hours involved and money spent to bring this edition to market they should certainly hope and want 4E to sell well.

That being said - we are in a recession and that, I believe, is having a large effect on how 4E sells in the short term. Any discussion on 4E sales needs to take into account the overall economic climate.

* Slight hyperbole to make a point.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I'd say the fact that they want to retain around 80% of the marketshare and maximize profits has more to do with...D&D trying to be "the game that had to appease every gamer" than 3e or the OGL. But yeah, it's the previous editions fault...

And now all D&D fans are totally happy playing the current version of D&D, no one's arguing, flaming, switching to other systems and... wait, what are we talking about again?

I started playing D&D in earnest during 2E's tenure. While it was the biggest and most popular game, it was not the game for everybody. It was the low maintenance, easy entry game with fun combat. It was also rules light enough to run narrative-style games for those who preferred rules-light for that sort of thing. People who wanted something more realistic, more detailed, a different flavor from what TSR offered, or whatever generally played or at least preferred other games.

It was with 3E and the OGL that D&D and the d20 behemoth started trying to be everything to everyone. As somebody who prefers both playing D&D straight up the mainstream while preferring wildly different systems when I'm not playing D&D(like Exalted, Vampire, or Rolemaster), I was not a fan of D&D/OGL trying to be everything to everyone.

 

[evilgenius8000]

I think its important to point out that MongooseMatt's comment is about the sales of his company's own 4E products that have been released (Wraith Recon and Quintessential Wizard) and not WotC's products. I am pretty sure the Rouse or another Wizards employee mentioned a while ago that sales of the core three were high enough to warrant a second printing.

 

[Darrin Drader]

What if Wizards designers came out and said, "Look, we know we pissed some of you off with the choices we made for 4E. We know we'll lose some of you as customers. But we went at this project with our hearts and made it the best game we could. The best D&D we could. You don't have to like it, but that's okay because this is our art, our masterpiece. And it is exactly what we wanted it to be."

Wizards never said you had to love 4E. They never forced you to buy it. If this was an indie publisher making radical changes to the way people game, we would be applauding their courage.

When the hell did D&D become the game that had to appease every gamer?

Sorry for the rant.

You're absolutely right. I designed Reign or Discordia with an intended audience of one, and frankly I think it's pretty cool that there are people out there who are enjoying it because its a piece of work that I'm proud of. I enjoy playing it, as do my players, and a number of people who have tried it and are now anticipating upcoming releases. Play it or ignore it as you wish.

In fact, I'm happy WotC made an edition of D&D that a lot of people don't like. For years I've bemoaned the fact that people aren't giving the games made by 3rd party publishers a chance. Now I see people not only giving them a chance, but a lot of people are getting excited about things like OSRIC, Mutant Future, Spycraft 2.0, Savage Worlds, and Cortex. In other words, the 3PPs are finally getting their much deserved day in the sun, and that's a good thing in my book.

If you're playing 4th edition and you're having fun, I'm happy for you. If you've decided to give something else a try and are having fun with it, I'm also happy for you. What I'm seeing from where I sit, the RPG publishing field is really opening up in a way I didn't even see back between 2000 and 2003. Things are just situated differently now due to the popularity of PDF publishing and print on demand services like Lulu.com.

Just my two cents.