Forsaker/Psionic?

[Kae'Yoss]

Spell-like abilities take a standard action, draw an AoO, and require Concentration. They are also subject to resistance.

Psionic powers take a standard action, draw an AoO, and require Concentration. They are also subject to resistance.

(assuming "psionics are different" rules variant in effect)

Magic is subject to spell resistance.
Psionics is subject to power resistance.

Quite different. Also, no bonus against magic (or stuff like antimagic zones, or dead magic zones) hamper psionics in any way. And those do affect spell-like abilities.

So, what we're trying to say is: If you go as far as using the "house-rule" psionics are different, we can as well house-rule that psionics don't count as spell-like abilities. We're off the beaten path anyway.
And the forsaker hates magic, not psionics, so roleplay-wise the forsaker/psion combo makes sense (maybe he hates magic and uses psionics to battle magic better).

But we also all agree completely that the combo is totally broken if you consider rules and balancing, and noone should allow it for PC's (could maybe be something for a powerful NPC, with a high ad-hoc XP bonus for defeating him. Although I wouldn't do that, because I tend to treat NPC's and PC's equally).

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The forsakers/psychic warriors are powerful, but so are ninjas in Rokugan

That's no comparison! Ninjas are a bit on the powerful side, but they lose a lot of nice things compared to the rogue, and despite their better BAB they still are boned if the enemy starts dealing serious damage: with their crappy d6 they must retreat soon enough.
This is for Ninjas used in other worlds. Within rokugan, there's the huge setback that they must conceal their true nature or are as good as dead!

The forsaker is balanced in that he cannot use any magic stuff. If you give him the use of psionics and psionic items, this is effectively negated, and the class is to powerful. But I'd not deviate from my path that psionics is no magic. I'd simply not allow forsakers in the game.

 

[Gez]

A forsaker would probably not make the distinction between magic and psionic. To the common man, there's no difference between a weirdo that says strange words and makes strange gesture that cause you to be swallowed by an hellish ball of green-white flames and a weirdo that have funky effects around him that causes you to be swallowed an hellish ball of green-white flames.

In both case, it's supernatural and EVIIIL ! Burn the witch ! Burn ! Burn !

What means do a forsaker have to know what the difference between magic and psionic (even in a "it's different" setting) ?

Casting antimagic. If the weird effect is still here, then it's psionic. Problem, a forsaker isn't going to cast dispel magic of antimagic zone. In fact, a forsaker is likely to butcher with an axe the learned wizard who would told you this subtlety to begin with; so he won't know it.

If it's innate, it's psionic. Magic comes from books. Problem, sorcery is magic and innate also.


Whatever how psionic works in your game, psionic effects are obviously supernatural; hence magic. The summoned astral construct IS magic. The biocurrent electric field coming from the psion's fingertips IS magic.

It's always unnatural and corrupting and bad and ugly and sinful and evil and MAGIC ! Burn !


Simply put, forsakers are likely to be neither smart enough nor open-minded enough to make a difference between magic and psionic.


And the whole concept is just as lame as the aforementionned half-dragon celestial paragon gelatinous cube cleric/shadowdancer of Pelor.

That's just my not that humble opinion.

 

[Gaiden]

Gez

In refutation of your point picture this:

Darksun

Every joe blow and his mother knows the difference between psionics and magic.

You are forcing an artificial construction into the mix by saying that forsakers would not distinguish between psionics and magic. While it is possible that they would not distinguish as you say. It is equally feasable that the difference between the two means everything to a forsaker and that his entire purpose is to rid the world of magic to replace it with psionics.

In fact it seems plausable to me that the best forsakers would know alot about magic to know how best to combat it and therefore have ranks in knowledge arcana or some such. Again it is equally plausable that a forsaker would approach psionics in the way [it looks like magic - kill it] as [it looks like magic but is different - maybe I can use this against magic]

Your point is equivalent to saying - we have discovered something new that resembles something we universally hate so lets destroy it. While there are certainly people who will agree to that close-minded fear induced response, there are ceratinly others that might want to study the newly discovered something in hopes that it can provide a good. Think of certain snake poisons - they have been used in genetics to study cancer, and a whole host of diseases. Think, evolution vs. creation. The list most certainly goes on.


If you use psionics are different (this is really the only relevant case) then it just does not make sense to equate a psionic "spell-like" power with a magic "spell-like" power. While they certainly fall under the same category with regards to extraordinary, supernatural or spell like. Psionic powers of the third category are by no means magical. The very language of that third category is misleading simply because it was designed before the psionics was introduced into 3e. All spell like powers resemble SPELLS. Introducing a supplementary rule that adds in a whole new category of powers (pun intended) means that we have to rethink the way we define innate abilities. Really the appropriate terms would now be spell like powers and power-like powers.

They both would belong to that third category. But one would be magical and the other psionic (respectively). If you want to use the variant rule, doing anything else simply does not make sense, regardless if you want to call what I am saying as a house rule or not. If you do not like this point simply because it makes psychic warrior/forsakers powerful, fix the problem, but not by simply saying that psionic powers are spell like, which they clearly are not. Rather, fix it with roleplaying constraints, membership constraints (in order to learn the forsaker abilities you have to join the order of forsakers which have a code of conduct, etc.) Afterall, it seems more than reasonable that there could and would be a group of psionic forsakers especially if there is conflict between psionics and magic on your world (with everything else I have already stated).