Fortune Cards: and randomized collectible cards come to D&D

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Taking advantage of our brain's dopamine triggers for reward-seeking in such a callously opportunistic way as is, in my book, a level of exploitation that I'm not comfortable with.

To follow that philosophy, you will also need to give up high fructose corn syrup, chocolate, mating, and love. And those are rough to go without.... largely thanks to those same circuits. While I'm pretty comfortable with chocolate, mating, and love, I've been trying to give up the high fructose corn syrup, but, man.... they put that stuff in everything, including stuff that doesn't even need a sweetener.

In any case, those four are only a handful of the things that rely heavily on the same circuitry and are exploited with no less opportunistic callousness.

We could implicate the same circuitry in everything rewarding about games. Receiving items, gaining a level, completing a quest or objective.... generally speaking... winning of any kind. Might have to give up gaming entirely, and certainly sports.

But now I'm getting a little silly. I suppose there are relatively benign activities that access this circuitry and very exploitative ones. On the maximally exploitative end, we have tobacco and illicit drugs. On the minimally exploitative, maybe candy and love.

These cards are more like heroin than Snickers bars? Seriously?

Frankly, I'd probably stick them somewhere in the middle, roughly adjacent to online gaming, but to each his own.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

It would, but it's not really the completion that bothers me. It's that selling randomized boosters exploits a pretty destructive cognitive trick for monetary gain, and gives me no added benefit in my D&D games. The cards could be fun. The method with which they are being sold, however, seems pretty vile to me.

I'm thinking that's a bit strong. Randomized boosters keep costs down as well - since non-random would mean that I have to buy the whole deck. Right there, that's a bonus. Getting players to spend twenty bucks on a deck might be a trick, but, most players will drop a couple of bucks on something like this.

"Vile" is pretty strong language. But, if you feel that strongly about it, I can totally see why you'd be against it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I suppose there are relatively benign activities that access this circuitry and very exploitative ones. On the maximally exploitative end, we have tobacco and illicit drugs. On the minimally exploitative, maybe candy and love.

These cards are more like heroin than Snickers bars? Seriously?

I get that it'll sit at different places for different people. I'm certainly not arguing that this is like heroin, but I am saying that it seems too exploitative to me for me to be comfortable with it at my tables. I'm saying it's more like horrible fast food, or maybe cigarettes. It is bad for you. It does little for you that can't be done in a better, more constructive way. It is entirely unnecessary and indulgent. It cultivates the most base of human instincts (a little thrill of the unexpected) for the most base of reasons (raw profit, since selling them like that isn't better for the actual games that will be played with them). It plays into a habitual psychological reward system ruthlessly (as gamers, we're probably more inclined to want that thrill of the unexpected, since we play a game where that is one of the basic psychological tools used to encourage play even without the cards -- we're more vulnerable to it).

And, yes, other things are too. That doesn't mean that the fate deck booster pack isn't, just because it isn't one of those things. It's still using the rush to drive sales when the rush itself doesn't add anything. That's a little exploitative to me. Using love to drive sales would also be exploitative to me (in that case, more so, since I value love pretty highly). Using sugar to drive sales also seems exploitative to me (in that case, less so, since I don't value a sugar rush that highly). Using alcohol to drive sales I recognize as exploiative, I just usually don't care (hooray beer). In this case, I care. If WotC was serving beer at their Encounters sessions, I wouldn't care (in fact, it would make me roughly 300% more likely to attend), but I bet at least a few parents would. If WotC had strippers at Encounters, I would care, but I bet a big chunk of the posters here wouldn't.

We can, I hope, officially stop with the "It isn't drugs, you reactionary crazy person!" line of discrediting. I can easily throw more links into the grist mill for why exploiting this reward system is potentially problematic, independent of any illicit chemicals, but I think I've explained my rationale pretty in-depth at this point. The marketing logic behind randomized boosters is something I find unpleasant, because the randomization doesn't add to anyone's D&D game, but it does exploit a very human reaction for pure monetary gain without giving anything back for that exploitation (since pack randomization doesn't in any way make the game better, AFAICT).

Magic is "crack." Pokemon itself has been cause for attention. I don't really appreciate seeing D&D go down the same rabbit hole. That's not a very extreme position to take, really.

I'm thinking that's a bit strong. Randomized boosters keep costs down as well - since non-random would mean that I have to buy the whole deck. Right there, that's a bonus. Getting players to spend twenty bucks on a deck might be a trick, but, most players will drop a couple of bucks on something like this.

"Vile" is pretty strong language. But, if you feel that strongly about it, I can totally see why you'd be against it

I wouldn't expect everyone to have that reaction. But when I see this, I think of people in my life that I've seen hurt by things like compulsive gambling, or a severe WoW or "Evercrack" habit (one that gets in the way of doing things they should be doing), or that guy who eats a KFC double-down to make himself happy, or the girl I know who might buy shoes instead of clothes for her kid. Whatever the "true cause" of the problems for these folks, little marketing tricks like this are fuel for the fire. I can understand that most of the time these things are harmless and have might have some marginal benefit, but I don't clearly see the benefit to the consumer, to a D&D player, in selling Fate Packs like this. I only see the benefit to the company. Which makes it not just a bad purchase, but a bad purchase that uses a problematic mental trick to ensure that it keeps getting made by some sucker. It's raw, naked profit motive, and that irks me for a whole host of other reasons too long and political to get into here. But since the Fate cards are getting it from at least two sides, yeah, I'd say I feel pretty strongly about it. It makes the things not fun anymore.

 

[Wicht]

I'm thinking that's a bit strong. Randomized boosters keep costs down as well - since non-random would mean that I have to buy the whole deck. Right there, that's a bonus. Getting players to spend twenty bucks on a deck might be a trick, but, most players will drop a couple of bucks on something like this.

You did see my post above analyzing costs right? By the time you buy two of these you probably could have bought a whole single deck for a dollar more and had twice as many cards. The completed decks from Paizo are not $20 they are $11. I'll believe $2 booster packs when I see them. I'm guessing $5, at least, is more in line with general WotC pricing practices.

 

[Scribble]

It would, but it's not really the completion that bothers me. It's that selling randomized boosters exploits a pretty destructive cognitive trick for monetary gain, and gives me no added benefit in my D&D games. The cards could be fun. The method with which they are being sold, however, seems pretty vile to me.

I think you're missing what we know about the cards, and replacing it with what you dislike about collectible card games though...

In a normal collectible card game, the rules actively encourage the player to go out and buy more cards.

"If you can just get the right combination of cards your deck will be perfect- you can beat your friends."

Buying more cards helps you get the right cards and build that perfect deck.

This is not true in this case.

From what they've said- the packs are randomized so that every pack you buy is just as effective as the last one. The balance stays the same. The rules actively prevent you from building the "perfect deck." You could go out and buy 1000 packs, but the deck you are allowed by the rules to build will be just as beneficial as a single pack of the cards.

This is the exact opposite of what you're upset about really.

I can buy one pack, and have no fear that I won't get as much benefit as Johnny Rich-Guy's deck of 10 million cards.


Again if the format isn't you preferred format that's all good. To each his own... But I think your negativity is misplaced on this one.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

or that guy who eats a KFC double-down to make himself happy

See, I don't find KFC exploitative in this case. An occassional double-down is not going to adversely affect your health. Just as smart buying practices with collectable cards will not harm you. One needs to be in control of their own implulses or get help. No one is exploiting the addict (although drug dealers that get someone physically addicted for free before they start charging is an obvious exception), each of us needs to live responsibly.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

You did see my post above analyzing costs right? By the time you buy two of these you probably could have bought a whole single deck for a dollar more and had twice as many cards. The completed decks from Paizo are not $20 they are $11. I'll believe $2 booster packs when I see them. I'm guessing $5, at least, is more in line with general WotC pricing practices.

A Magic booster pack is currently $3.75 for 15 cards or 25 cents per card. Just to provide a point of reference. This model, if applied to Fortune cards, allows a small buy-in for card expansions.

Paizo's Plot Twist deck is $10.99 for 51 cards or 21.5 cents per card. This model creates a static deck until Plot Twist 2 is released for an additional $10.99, if such a product were to ever exist at all.

Each model has its plusses and minuses as far as I can tell.

 

[Hussar]

You did see my post above analyzing costs right? By the time you buy two of these you probably could have bought a whole single deck for a dollar more and had twice as many cards. The completed decks from Paizo are not $20 they are $11. I'll believe $2 booster packs when I see them. I'm guessing $5, at least, is more in line with general WotC pricing practices.

As was said, since you have absolutely no idea what the price point is going to be, why automatically assume the worst?

A five dollar booster isn't going to sell, at least, I don't think it would. Too much for an impulse buy, which is likely where a lot of sales are going to draw from.

I can't see these being much more than a Magic pack. Maybe. If they are, I certainly wouldn't buy them.

Just as a question, because I really have no idea, are the Paizo decks available in hobby shops? Or only from their online store? Looking at their site, I see that it's tied heavily into their subscription model, which I have no interest in.

Just trying to get all the facts.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I think you're missing what we know about the cards, and replacing it with what you dislike about collectible card games though...

In a normal collectible card game, the rules actively encourage the player to go out and buy more cards.

"If you can just get the right combination of cards your deck will be perfect- you can beat your friends."

Buying more cards helps you get the right cards and build that perfect deck.

This is not true in this case.

From what they've said- the packs are randomized so that every pack you buy is just as effective as the last one. The balance stays the same. The rules actively prevent you from building the "perfect deck." You could go out and buy 1000 packs, but the deck you are allowed by the rules to build will be just as beneficial as a single pack of the cards.

This is the exact opposite of what you're upset about really.

I can buy one pack, and have no fear that I won't get as much benefit as Johnny Rich-Guy's deck of 10 million cards.


Again if the format isn't you preferred format that's all good. To each his own... But I think your negativity is misplaced on this one.

A fine point. The big question with the non-deck building model will be:
can players keep using existing opened cards at official events or will buying new packs be required to participate?

 

[I'm A Banana]

From what they've said- the packs are randomized so that every pack you buy is just as effective as the last one. The balance stays the same. The rules actively prevent you from building the "perfect deck." You could go out and buy 1000 packs, but the deck you are allowed by the rules to build will be just as beneficial as a single pack of the cards.

This is the exact opposite of what you're upset about really.

I can buy one pack, and have no fear that I won't get as much benefit as Johnny Rich-Guy's deck of 10 million cards.

My major problem with the cards is a very specific one, actually, and not exactly this one. I'm not too worried about little Peter Moneybags having The Best Deck and leaving everyone in the dust (it's a distant concern, one that the information about the cards does much to dispel). The pleasure release isn't about the success, really. Compulsive gamblers like to win, sure, but it's not about the winning. It's about the playing. The chance element. That's the element that randomized card packs exploit. That's the thing that leads to "addictive" behavior. That's what doesn't add anything at the table. That's the predatory business practice. That was also my major issue with the minis.

If they simply dropped the randomized booster aspect of the cards, I pretty much have no problem with them (and in fact think they're a keen idea -- the TORG drama deck is plenty fun).

$4 or $5 or $3.45 (which is really seems like splitting hairs to me, but whatever) for a a booster pack may or may not reflect that pack's true value to you. A slot machine only costs $.50. Buying it is a gamble. And that's when it becomes kind of exploitative. And that's what makes it unwelcome for me.