OT, but if you don't mind me asking why did you switch from PF2 to 5e?
Foundry VTT Author Chimes in on OGL 1.1
- Thread starter Steel_Wind
- Start date
PF2 has a lot of really great ideas, genuinely interesting and cool innovations. But it still suffers from lots of unnecessary granularity, and feats with tiny tiny bonuses. I really wish I could smash the character creation of PF2 into the main system of 5E and make some kind of glorious/unholy hybrid.
Also, no players. Hard as heck to find players.
Steel_Wind
Legend
It was for "political" reasons - though I don't think this is really "politics". @Umbran will correct me if necessary, I'm sure.
[And I apologize in advance if it is]
What happened was last February, Russia invaded Ukraine. Various Western nations announced financial sanctions on Russia and Russians, and in particular, took steps to ensure that it would be really hard to send money to (or get money out of) Russia to and from the West.
About 2-3 weeks after the invasion and as sanctions were being discussed in the media and announced by the UK, Canada, the USA and much of the rest of the West, there was an expansion DLC released for Wrath of the Righteous, the PC Game for PF1. The game is written by Owlcat, a Moscow based developer and published by its parent, which is a corporation based in Cyprus. I don't have anything against the devs in Owlcat, but the purpose of our financial sanctions is not to express our outrage to the people of Russia -- it's to make their lives difficult and so make it more difficult for Putin to govern that nation. And Owlcat's finances are based in Cypus. As a lawyer, I know that is a RED FLAG.
If you know anything about international banking, you know that Cyprus has the most corrupt banking system in the West. If you think you can track money that goes into a Cypriot bank? You can't; not really.
So as the DLC was announced, Paizo shilled for Owlcat -- as I am sure they were contractually obligated to do on both Twitter, via-email and on Paizo's website.
I took exception to this, because in the context at the time -- and at all times since -- sending money in a way that it certain to reach ordinary every day Russians just living their lives in Russia has been something that all of us,. collectively, in the West have been morally and legally against doing. Business as usual with Russia and Russians was not okay.
I posted on this very topic on Paizo's message board to complain about it. Tonya Woldrige DELETED MY POST suggesting that I was discussing "politics" and that was not okay on Paizo's boards. That was a deliberate and convenient lie, imo.
I cancelled my subscriptions the next day (I like to wait and not do things when I am angry). I ceased all development of a PF2 version of RotRL I was doing as a for pay gig for Foundry VTT, ended all work I was doing on the Automated Animations and SND FX for PF2 for Foundry VTT (free project, I was ~half done) and suspended two Pathfinder 2 campaigns indefinitely. Another player of mine, who runs Agents of Edgewatch ended his campaign that same day.
This was a difficult decision for me, as many of the top level creative people at Paizo are people I consider to be personal friends. I bear them no ill will -- but this was more than "just business" to me.
And just like that, after being a Paizo superfan and literally owning every product they had ever released, in any format, (including some really obscure ones from 2003) I was out.
If and when the war In Ukraine comes to an end, I will reconsider my position. If, before that should occur, WotC does something really offensive with the OGL 1.1, I will, perhaps, also reconsider.
But for now, that's why I am here, running Rime of the FrostMaiden and Shadow of the Dragon Queen via Foundry VTT, and how it is that WotC recently got a whole lot more of my money.
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Stormonu
Legend
I purchase more PDF than physical books these days, and certainly whenever I purchase physical copies I ensure I get the PDF along with it (if available). At home, I'll often pull down the book to read, but on the go and at the FLGS, I leave the books behind - I'm too old to be lugging around a 35 lb. backpack anymore.This is me 100%. I purchase the books like a responsible adult, then immediately download a PDF so that I can search for text and have it available on my phone/laptop/etc. The physical books just sit there, almost never getting actually used.
That 5E doesn't have PDFs is incredibly annoying; hell, I got PDF copies of the GI Joe & Transformers game but can't get Wotc 5E PDFs? I have purchased Beyond copies of most of the books, but that's only available when online and annoyingly formatted and linked.
I don't disagree, though I'm saddened that Owlcat got screwed by mere proximity.
That said, I think the topic is extremely political and best avoided here.
payn
Legend
Paizo does not allow political discussions on their boards. Also, unlike EN World, the mods there often delete postings instead of leaving them. That is confusing at times because you have no idea what was moderated, but thats how they roll.
Yes, it is very convenient for some topics.
Steel_Wind
Legend
Well, let's not kid ourselves here. The entire Western world was united in its condemnation of the invasion of Ukraine. It certainly was not an issue of much division re: domestic politics in any English language speaking nation on Earth -- nor in any democracy on this planet, either.
And there's nothing "politically divisive" about a pair of dead kids lying in a pool of blood in the streets of Kyiv or Chernihiv. You need to really strain the purpose of Paizo's Message Board rules to reach that conclusion.
Anyway, that's why.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
And subject to content alteration or deletion at any time.
Zardnaar
Legend
I had developed a taste for Russian beer.
Now I'm generally drinking German or Lithuanian/Ukrainian when I can find it.
payn
Legend
They dont want to host any of that on their boards, doesn't mean they are not sympathetic. When they dropped the no politics rule they dropped it hard. Drove a lot of folks out because discussion got pretty specific to fewer topics.
Steel_Wind
Legend
There are a broad swath of topics that would fall under "domestic politics" in the USA, but which they declare are "human rights" and so "not politics". (To be clear, I happen to agree with that view. I have a trans kid and so does my brother.)They dont want to host any of that on their boards, doesn't mean they are not sympathetic. When they dropped the no politics rule they dropped it hard. Drove a lot of folks out because discussion got pretty specific to fewer topics.
By the same token, the right to not get murdered on your own city streets by a foreign state is the most fundamental of those human rights. The main difference is that on that issue, Paizo suddenly didn't look very good.
Please appreciate that as this was going on at the time, it was in the context (on the following day I think) of McDonald's announcing it was permanently pulling out of all operations in Russia.
"Hey loyal customer, we've got new DLC for that game we know you own! Buy it here!" [insert link]
[The End]
LordEntrails
Hero
On DDB, You didn't buy it on Foundry. It has been apparent for many months, before WotC bought DDB, that WotC felt that such was not a fair use of their IP.
WotC's 5E (and 2E with some restrictions are on FG) versions of D&D content are available for licensing by VTTs. If Foundry felt it was the right business decision for them, I see no reason they could not also obtain legal access to the content.
So being difficult to do something justifies stealing if it is easier?
They pay for it on DDB, they DO NOT pay for it on their VTT of choice.
I don't recall any lawyers not saying it was a very grey area from day one. And if WotC decided they wanted to do something about it, they probably could. And, it now looks like they are and will.
Popularity does not make things right or ethical. There are way too many instances one can look to history for proof of that, as recent as just a week ago or so.
Roll20 already has a license to release the DMG. They have for years. But Roll20 has stated it was not valuable enough for their users to release it. It's never been about Roll20 having the legal right to release it, it has been as simple as they did not think they could do so for enough profit (possible in part because they did not see that they could add enough value to it).
Steel_Wind
Legend
Let me address your comments, because they seem high on hyperbole -- and low on rationality.
Firstly, this is not about Foundry VTT -- it is about a patreon software shim created by "Mr. Primate", and another less capable free software shim by VTTA.
Secondly, DDB products are something that the vast majority of Foundry VTT users - me included, bought for EXACTLY this purpose. That is ownership of the data from the perspective of "theft" and "ethics". That is a color of right. We aren't talking about theft or piracy anymore -- and it's not even close.
"Oh, but you didn't get it for X purposes, you only are allowed to use it for Y purposes. It's theft!"
What you are talking about is not theft, it's a technical breach of an EULA with ZERO DAMAGES. Indeed, LESS than ZERO damages.
Why? Because WotC makes MORE money if I buy the product on DDB for use with Foundry VTT than if I was to buy the same product on Roll 20 or FG's store -- because on those purchases, WotC gets only a percentage of the sale, whereas when buying it on DDB (for the same amount of money, I might add) WotC gets 100% of it.
Which explains why it is that WotC has not sent a Cease & Desist to Mr. Primate. For the very good reason it is manifestly in WotC's financial interest to allow it to continue. It is, in fact, insanely profitable for them to do so as the marginal cost of allowing it is close to ZERO. The money they get in return is essentially all profit - and they get to keep all of it, 100%.
The only people who are aggrieved here is the owner of FG and, to a lesser extent, Roll20, who have technology developed on a more closed system that does not leverage DDB. The people the shareholders of those two services should be upset with is WotC for not sending a C&D.
The fact that WotC has not done so tells you all you need to know about what kind of licensor partner WotC is. They will act only when it is in their financial interest to do so -- and not until. Just like every other licensor in the history of ever, I might add.
If this is a discussion about morals and ethics, the one who is acting unethically isn't me or other Foundry VTT users of Mr. Primate's patreon -- it's WotC, who is happy to take 100% of a sale and screw over their licensees until such time as they can create their own VTT -- and then screw over everybody.
Which brings us back to the true subject matter of this thread.
LordEntrails
Hero
Justify your actions however you wish. I'm not the only one who has thought that the Beyond 20 extension (and others) has been ethically dubious from day 1.
My behavior reflects my ethics. And I have no concerns over no longer being able to use my DDB purchases in the future in the way I intended to use them. I can see how others who do not share my ethics might be concerned about theirs.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
They cannot obtain it, despite attempts, because WotC refuses to grant it to them. For some reason they don't want to enter a formal agreement with a VTT that is likely bigger than Fantasy Grounds at this point
Personally I hope they continue not to long enough for me to import all my content before WotC changes it yet again.
Steel_Wind
Legend
I pay close to $500 CDN for access on DDB for a number of products over the course of nine months, and I'm acting unethically? I don't agree.
It is doubtful that WotC could even get an injunction if it tried to do so to prevent this, I might add. They don't meet the second branch of the test for obtaining an injunction -- they have not and will not suffer irreparable harm by this software shim; indeed, they been enriched by it.
That fact is something you seem to be ignoring. I am not sure why.
It is doubtful that WotC could even get an injunction if it tried to do so to prevent this, I might add. They don't meet the second branch of the test for obtaining an injunction -- they have not and will not suffer irreparable harm by this software shim; indeed, they been enriched by it.
That fact is something you seem to be ignoring. I am not sure why.
LordEntrails
Hero
Says who? Someone who has not obtained such a license. Maybe they haven't obtained it because they are not willing to put in the safeguards to protect the IP. Maybe it's because WotC is unwilling to even discuss it. Maybe it's a thousand things. But we only know one-side of the story. To believe that is the unbiased truth is the height of ignorance.
LordEntrails
Hero
You're the one talking about legal actions and injunctions, not me. I'm the one who has said that I do not believe it is ethical to do what you are doing, But that you get to make that choice for yourself. The appearance that such an observation by me has you so riled up is telling.
ArchAngel Shadow
First Post
They DO produce a superior product, and most people use it. That's why everybody ELSE is trying to use their rules and player base to build their OWN products and companies without contributing to the upkeep of that rules base and community.
EzekielRaiden
Legend
Where is this superior WotC VTT of which you speak?
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