Fourt Edition energy drain - see warrior wight

[FourthBear]

I was intending to draw a parallel, but not the one you attacked. I'm quite aware that above isn't strictly save or die, but it is very close to energy drain something that was stated as being removed from 4e because it wasn't fair or fun.

Likewise, I do see the Bodak as back pedalling on stated design goals.

There are a number of times the designers have noted that they find save or die objectionable. One element of this is bypassing hit points, however it was always in the larger context of "one roll, one chance". I am not aware of any cases where the designers made any claims that attacks that bypassed hit points in general were a design goal to eliminate. Therefore, I don't see where your claim of back pedaling is supported.

This particular attack can only bring a character to a dying state, bypassing hit points, with several applications or significant previous weakening. Thus, it does not suffer from the primary problems with the Bodak's gaze: the one roll, one chance effect.

 

[Fifth Element]

I'm just finding it interesting that after ranting about how bad mechanics that bypassed hit points were for game balance, that we are finding out that underneath all of that '3E suxor' language that we've been getting from the 4E devs that the innovations are actually pretty small.

It seems to me they talked about getting rid of things that weren't fun, not things that had mechanics that bypassed hit points. Save or die and level drains were deemed unfun, not bad mechanics that bypassed hit points.

 

[FadedC]

I was intending to draw a parallel, but not the one you attacked. I'm quite aware that above isn't strictly save or die, but it is very close to energy drain something that was stated as being removed from 4e because it wasn't fair or fun.

Likewise, I do see the Bodak as back pedalling on stated design goals.

I think it's more that you may have misunderstood the design goals. The bodak wasn't fair or fun because it killed you with 1 die roll. There was little defence against it, and you were dead....you couldn't be healed and just continue the fight. None of those things are true in 4e.

Similarly I don't remmeber them ever saying they wanted to remove energy drainor non hp attack type abilities only level drain. I think you may be trying too hard to find things to complain about.

 

[Celebrim]

I know my complaint has always been the random nature of Save or Die (the Bodak's Death Gaze)

I obviously can't speak for everyone involved in the 'Save or Die' arguments. It sounds like your root complaint is very close to mine. However, there was a faction that argued against my claim that 'save or die' was actually good for the game and all that really needed to happen was such abilities needed to be balanced better. There was indeed a faction that welcomed the 4E designers claim, 'No more save or die', with great glee. You might not have been in it, but it was certainly there.

It was funny how that same group didn't spawn large numbers of threads bemoaning the new Bodak, because it meant your hero was basically a coin toss away from dying.

and the relatively painful nature of Energy Drain compared to monsters themselves (there's something inherently wrong that 20th level PCs would run screaming away from a wight yet have no fear of taking on a Dragon)

Some of us consider that a feature, and not a bug.

Personally, I see the 4E rules like this and the Bodak it akin to the switch from the TABLE nature of attack bonuses in 1E, to the introduction of THACO in 2E, to the change to BAB in 3e.

3E's BAB is basically THACO which is basically the 1E attack bonus Table. So technically, you could play with either one and get the same effect but really, which one would YOU prefer using?

Obviously, since I left 1st edition for GURPS, and left GURPS for 3rd editioni, the answer is 'BAB'.

But this analogy isn't a good one, because between 3E and 4E we don't necessarily get the same effect.

Asked to choose between the 3E and 4E save or die, and I'll choose neither, but instead choose 3E save or die, with the 4E resolution 'Instead of immediate death, you are immediately dying'. Looking at the 4E rules and combing them for new innovation, the main thing I see that I'd like to adopt is to change the results of 'Save or Die' to 'You know have negative X hit points'. So for example, I'll probably change 'Power Word: Kill' such that if effected, you are reduced to -6 hit points (or something like that). But I don't see the need for the drastic changes that 4E is bringing when my problem basically came down to "the random nature of Save or Die"

 

[WhatGravitas]

It seems to me they talked about getting rid of things that weren't fun, not things that had mechanics that bypassed hit points. Save or die and level drains were deemed unfun, not bad mechanics that bypassed hit points.

To expand on that: They were unfun because they not only bypassed your hit points, but because, in the save-or-die-case because they didn't gave you chance to react, putting everything into a single roll. And for level drain... because it ate your experience points.

The bypassing of hit points is still in 4E - look at the sleep spell - that's a 1st level spell and already bypasses hit points partially - but not in one fell swoop.

And that's the point - and in this spirit, the new "energy drain" is pretty neat: It recaptures the feel, as well as the danger of wearing you down in an hard-to-cope-with way - by eating your healing.

Cheers, LT.

 

[AllisterH]

It was funny how that same group didn't spawn large numbers of threads bemoaning the new Bodak, because it meant your hero was basically a coin toss away from dying.

I'm not sure how the new Bodak is equivalent to "coin toss" like the pre 4E version. Let's say I walk into a room and there's a bodak

3E version: Single Die roll.

4E version: 5 Die rolls.

I'm not sure how the 4E version is "coin toss"?

 

[Hypersmurf]

M Soul Reaping (standard; recharge) +12 vs. Fort; Immobilized only; 1d12+5 necrotic damage AND healing reserves -1; this creature gains +4 attacks/Defenses for the rest of the encounter; recharge 4.

Damn - I had an idea for an aura ability that eats healing surges. I thought I was being innovative

-Hyp.