Fourt Edition energy drain - see warrior wight

[Fifth Element]

Everything old is new again.

The Bodak has a save or die. Now we have an attack that directly bypasses hit points.

For me, at least, the problem with energy drain was not that it bypasses hit points. It's that it affecting a completely metagame concept - levels. Ability drain made sense - you feel yourself getting weaker (or whatever). Level drain didn't - you feel yourself, what, becoming less competent at certain things, and forgetting how to do things you did before?

 

[FourthBear]

The Bodak has a save or die. Now we have an attack that directly bypasses hit points.

The Bodak's gaze had you roll a save or die. Thus, save or die. This does not have you rolling a save and dying. Or the monster rolling a single hit and you dying (unless your Fort Def was already drained for some reason). Thus, no save or die. The definition of save or die is saving or dying, not bypassing hit points.

 

[Celebrim]

For me, at least, the problem with energy drain was not that it bypasses hit points. It's that it affecting a completely metagame concept - levels.

And fortitude saves aren't? Aren't they explicitly tied to levels? In 1st edition, levels were a measure of fantastic concept - lifeforce. Since lifeforce has no measurable counterpart in the real world, its natural that you'd consider it a metagame concept.

Ability drain made sense - you feel yourself getting weaker (or whatever).

Right, because abilities measure something that is also (comparitively) measurable in the real world.

Level drain didn't - you feel yourself, what, becoming less competent at certain things, and forgetting how to do things you did before?

More or less, yes. You become diminished. Your soul has been damaged, and so you like the spiritual vitality you had before. You have less drive, less vigor, and less of whatever supernatural quality allowed you to be a hero and survive 50' falls and combat with opponents that weigh 4000 lbs.

My sole objection to level drain (now that it involves a saving throw) is that it can be complicated to calculate. The sole advantage of the new level drain is that it only damages one attribute, rather than the collection of attributes that the old level drain damaged. To a certain extent, that makes it more like hit point damage.

I'm just finding it interesting that after ranting about how bad mechanics that bypassed hit points were for game balance, that we are finding out that underneath all of that '3E suxor' language that we've been getting from the 4E devs that the innovations are actually pretty small. In fact, I can approximate the most important innovation in mechanics that bypass hitpoints in 3.X (and probably will). Save or die now means, 'Save or dying'. I'm ok with that.

 

[FadedC]

Everything old is new again.

The Bodak has a save or die. Now we have an attack that directly bypasses hit points.

The bodak doesn't kill you only drops you to 0. It also can only use the attack if it has previosuly hit you in melee and it's ability to do it can be negated with a radiant attack. The bodak wouldn't really be in flavor without some kind of "death" gaze and this is FAR more fair then the previous bodak.

And yeah the wight is very different but still hurts you in ways that don't invole HP as much. Most people would consider preserving previous monster flavor a good thing.

 

[Celebrim]

The Bodak's gaze had you roll a save or die. Thus, save or die. This does not have you rolling a save and dying. Or the monster rolling a single hit and you dying (unless your Fort Def was already drained for some reason). Thus, no save or die. The definition of save or die is saving or dying, not bypassing hit points.

Errr... ummmm... I think you misunderstood me.

This is not a save or die attack, and I never claimed it was. I claimed that this was an attack that bypassed hitpoints in as much as no matter how many hit points you have remaining, you can still find yourself dying. Attacks that bypass hit points aren't 'save or die' attacks, but 'save or die' attacks are just the most notable example of the larger class of attacks that bypass hitpoints and include things like ability damage, energy drain, and even paralyzation and sleep (because they can be followed up by a coup de grace).

 

[Celebrim]

The bodak doesn't kill you only drops you to 0.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?

Most people would consider preserving previous monster flavor a good thing.

That's ironic isn't it? I mean, wasn't the whole point slaying sacred cows that weren't good for the game? Didn't we have thread after thread saying how good of a thing it would be for these things to be gone? Now that they aren't gone suddenly the defenders of the 4e are back to, 'No it is better that they aren't gone, they just needed to be balanced better'.

Isn't that what I've been saying all along?

 

[FourthBear]

Errr... ummmm... I think you misunderstood me.

It was your comment that "Everything old is new again." Immediately followed by the comment about the Bodak's gaze. If you weren't intending to draw a parallel to the two abilities and suggest that the 4e design team was being inconsistent or back pedaling on design goals, then I mistook your intention.

 

[Klaus]

For me, at least, the problem with energy drain was not that it bypasses hit points. It's that it affecting a completely metagame concept - levels. Ability drain made sense - you feel yourself getting weaker (or whatever). Level drain didn't - you feel yourself, what, becoming less competent at certain things, and forgetting how to do things you did before?

That's how I've always played it: level drain eats up your life force. You *know* you were able to do certain things, and you now find yourself unable to remember exactly how they were done.

One of the 1st-level NPCs I once made up was the world's greatest wizard... but he lost almost all his levels to energy drain, so his apprentice was actually more competent than he, and it drove him nuts.

 

[AllisterH]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?



That's ironic isn't it? I mean, wasn't the whole point slaying sacred cows that weren't good for the game? Didn't we have thread after thread saying how good of a thing it would be for these things to be gone? Now that they aren't gone suddenly the defenders of the 4e are back to, 'No it is better that they aren't gone, they just needed to be balanced better'.

Isn't that what I've been saying all along?

Hmm?

I know my complaint has always been the random nature of Save or Die (the Bodak's Death Gaze) and the relatively painful nature of Energy Drain compared to monsters themselves (there's something inherently wrong that 20th level PCs would run screaming away from a wight yet have no fear of taking on a Dragon),

Personally, I see the 4E rules like this and the Bodak it akin to the switch from the TABLE nature of attack bonuses in 1E, to the introduction of THACO in 2E, to the change to BAB in 3e.

3E's BAB is basically THACO which is basically the 1E attack bonus Table. So technically, you could play with either one and get the same effect but really, which one would YOU prefer using?

It's the same thing here. I as a player and as a DM if having to choose between the 4E version of Save or Die and Energy Drain and the pre 4E version, I'll take the 4E version EVERY TIME.

 

[Celebrim]

It was your comment that "Everything old is new again." Immediately followed by the comment about the Bodak's gaze. If you weren't intending to draw a parallel to the two abilities and suggest that the 4e design team was being inconsistent or back pedaling on design goals, then I mistook your intention.

I was intending to draw a parallel, but not the one you attacked. I'm quite aware that above isn't strictly save or die, but it is very close to energy drain something that was stated as being removed from 4e because it wasn't fair or fun.

Likewise, I do see the Bodak as back pedalling on stated design goals.