Fourth Edition just feels... incomplete

Lanefan said:
One of 3e's biggest mistakes, pure and simple.
But given that magic items creation was allowed to PCs, there is no reason to put the magic items in the DMG.

So you can argue about the rules allowing PCs making magic items, but given the decision made by the designers, putting magic items in the PHB is 100% the right thing to do.
 

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Fifth Element said:
But given that magic items creation was allowed to PCs, there is no reason to put the magic items in the DMG.

So you can argue about the rules allowing PCs making magic items, but given the decision made by the designers, putting magic items in the PHB is 100% the right thing to do.

Magic item creation by PCs is discussed in Basic D&D, AD&D 1st Edition, and AD&D 2nd Edition....I'm not sure about OD&D. Magic item creation has always been allowed to PCs, but there has also always been good reasons to list magic items in the DMG (rather than the PHB).

1. Mystery. Part of the fun of the game, especially when one first begins playing, is not knowing what things are, and what they can do. Many folks remember the thrill of smashing their first skeleton, thinking of the ones Harryhausen stop-animated for Jason and the Argonauts without any concern at all for thier stats in game. The whole schtick of magic is to be mysterious and unknown. It's cool to discover the game, smash a skeleton, and then discover your first healing potion. Putting the items in the PHB not only removes that intial coolness, but it leads the players from the begining to dismiss lesser items because they aren't really the "cool stuff".....in much the same way that PCs will leave copper pieces lying in the dust.

2. Creating Expectations Limits Options. Putting magic items in the PHB indicates that they are simply equipment, and thus creates the expectation that they can be bought and sold like anything else. This isn't always true in every world, but it becomes more true the more player expectations are skewed this way. AD&D 1e and 2e could easily do low fantasy, high fantasy, or somewhere in between (IMHO). Many have claimed that 3e could not do low fantasy easily or well; I believe that claim to be wrong, but that the expectations leading to that claim arise from the way magic items are intertwined to player expectations in the PHB. It isn't the rules that make playing low-fantasy 3e hard; it's the expectations built into the PHB. You can alter those expectations, but the more they are set in the PHB, the harder this is.

3. Limiting Options, Part Two: During the 2e era, TSR came out with a series of volumes detailing every magic item from every TSR product up to that point. There were many combat-related magic items. There were many, many, many more that were just fun. Tons of kooky items that did things that might aid in exploration, or might just provide some creature comfort, or might have some function in long-term campaign play. One will note how many of these items didn't appear in the far more combat-focused 3e. Treating magic items like any other item of equipment causes designers (including individual players and DMs) to focus on utility, rather than on what might be interesting in the game world itself.

(BTW, anyone who thinks that earlier editions of D&D were as combat-focused as 3e or 4e would do well to examine the Encyclopedia Magica and see how broadly earlier editions defined "interesting" and "fun".)

4. Cutting Classes: Placing the magic items in the PHB also limits space for things that should be part of an initial offering, such as the druid and bard. How does it make any sense to say that the players should not have to buy the DMG to find out how to make a rope of climbing, but that it's okay to have to buy another PHB to find out how to make a druid? WTF?

5. Utility: Magic items take up a lot of space. Most players will use relatively few of these items during the life of the edition. Most players will create even fewer. The DM, OTOH, will use many more over the life of the edition, placing some in the hands of enemies, placing some as treasures (that will or will not end up in PC hands), placing some in the hands of allies or potential allies, and so on, and so forth. The DM needs this information. A player interested in this information, in general, can simply borrow (or buy) the DMG for that purpose.

IMHO, of course, and YMMV.


RC
 

Raven Crowking said:
3. Limiting Options, Part Two: During the 2e era, TSR came out with a series of volumes detailing every magic item from every TSR product up to that point. There were many combat-related magic items. There were many, many, many more that were just fun. Tons of kooky items that did things that might aid in exploration, or might just provide some creature comfort, or might have some function in long-term campaign play.
(BTW, anyone who thinks that earlier editions of D&D were as combat-focused as 3e or 4e would do well to examine the Encyclopedia Magica and see how broadly earlier editions defined "interesting" and "fun".)

Do you remember Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue?
 

I have the Encyclopedia Magica series. Best value for money AFTER Faiths & Avatars IMO.

The problem is that as soon as magic items can be created in a mechanical fashion, there's precious little reason the PCs are going to bother with a random magic item.

I have the DM Options: High level Campaigns as well as PO:Sp&M and let's face it, making a magic item was an adventure in of itself. We're talking all these esoteric components that while cool, always made me wonder "Ok, a philter of love requires ALL of that? Didn't I grab a couple of these from that dungeon last level. Who the hell is making all these items :D "

The thing about 4E I consider an advantage is that you can clearly see the math behind the screen so if you want to run a low magic item campaign, you can tell at a glance what bonuses you have to give the PCs.

3E lacked this feature unfortunately so trying to divorce magic items from PCs was bound to fail.
 

Fifth Element said:
If we're comparing 4E to 3.5 core, I don't now how you can complain about their being only a few epic destinies and epic feats. How many epic feats does the 3.5 PHB have? Zero, I think. The rules for epic characters are not in 3.5 core.

They're in the 3.5e DMG. Epic rules weren't in the 3.0e core, mostly because they didn't exist at that point.
 

I agree in many ways it seems that way - I tried statting up a 3rd level Warlock the other day, and each Pact only had one option available to them of each of their powers (only one star pact at-will, encounter, daily, etc - granted they can take powers outside their pact). There are less than 20 wondrous items (13 to be exact)! Having to put so many powers into the books made it necessary to cull a large amount of other items.
 

Steely Dan said:
Do you remember Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue?

I still own a copy. :cool:

I love that earlier editions were so encompassing in terms of what was "fun" and what was interesting in terms of building worlds and adventures.

I find, in particular, the 3e system as written too constrained in terms of easy new monster creation, for example. Thankfully, though, we have places like the EN World Creature Catalog, books like Tome of Horrors, and Exped. Retreat's Monster Builder to help fill the gap.

It seems that 4e offers some definite advantage in this area. Unfortunately, the offset to that advantage seems far too high. To me, anyway.


RC
 

But then, let's think about it. What kind of options did, say... a Barbarian have? Or a Rogue? Using only the core rules.

Maybe the "error" in 4E is that the builds and "sub-classes" are mentioned explicitly. So, instead of just playing a Warlock and seeing where that leads you, you're looking at a Fey Pact Warlock or an Archery Ranger. That's like saying a Barbarian aiming for Whirlwind Attack is limited in his options. It's true, because you already chosen your path.

Off course, I would welcome still welcome more options, in the end.
Getting that might cost me some time and money, but my hope is that 4E supplements will provide "more bang for their buck". 3E supplements were usually nice, but contained barely enough material to feel justified. Usually it were 1-3 classes, feats or spells in each book that might be worth it, while the rest got mostly ignored.

The PHB 2 was the first book that seemed to provide a lot more useful material (at least from a Fighter's perspective - it was better then Sword & First or Complete Warrior)
 

Raven Crowking said:
I still own a copy. :cool:

I love that earlier editions were so encompassing in terms of what was "fun" and what was interesting in terms of building worlds and adventures.

I find, in particular, the 3e system as written too constrained in terms of easy new monster creation, for example. Thankfully, though, we have places like the EN World Creature Catalog, books like Tome of Horrors, and Exped. Retreat's Monster Builder to help fill the gap.

It seems that 4e offers some definite advantage in this area. Unfortunately, the offset to that advantage seems far too high. To me, anyway.


RC
It seems that in both editions, you need to spend money to overcome the short-comings.

The question might be where you have to spend the most? Off course, this is in the end skewed in favor of 3E - you already spend the money to get your options. In 4E, you still have to buy all that stuff promising to give you more...
 

Raven Crowking said:
-I still own a copy.


-I find, in particular, the 3e system as written too constrained in terms of easy new monster creation

-I too – love the pulp novel quality paper.


-Yeah, 3rd Ed monster design/creating was like putting together a jig-saw, whereas 4th Ed monster design seems more like sculpting, and we know which one is more creative.
 

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