[FR] Campaign Setting interpretation diatribe

[jester47]

Re: Re

Personally, I enjoy the Realms. They have taken snippets of historical human civilizations and blended them with magic to create a rich, detailed, fantastic world with its own mythology and feel.

The thing is these "historical human civs" are barely recognizable (unless you use the novels, then they are blatant). Mongol like warriors, Barbarians from the north, Lands ruled by a just king, Islands inhabited by Pirates, Lands of Pharohs and desert tombs, Arabian Nights are all legends and stories that became staples of Sword and Sorcery. In the original Conan stories there were the Hyrkanians. Conan himself is a northern barbarian. They had desert nomads knights in armor, mediterranian civs, pirates, jungles etc. I think what we assume is historical in FR is in actuality legendary as legends are a kind of myth.

It is one of the few worlds to take into account how much magic would change the historical development of the world. If magic truly existed, it would be like the discovery of electricity in our own world.

Not really. Two points. 1) Magic balances itself out. For every magical action there is an equal and opposite reaction. 2) Electricity does not change its properties based on who or what is arround to influence an active current. Magic does. Thus it is more unpredictable, and this unpredictability keeps it from working like a technology. That is why most spell effects (in almost all literature) are short or instant.

Magic would shape the technological development of the world in ways that many campaign worlds fail to develop. The Realms truly develops this idea with prevalent magic shops and magic items that make life easier such as Travel Cloaks and magical water distribution systems in major cities. I see nothing wrong with powerful magic reshaping fantasy economies. That is what it would do if it really existed.

First I would liken running a magic shop to running a game store. Not everyone is interested in the product, most want to stay away from it. It is hard to turn a profit unless you have a loyal customer base, most fold after about two years, etc etc. Besides, most magic based services would cater to the privlidged. For instance, to bring in Berandor's example, the magical shipping company. Aurora's aint FedEx. I would make it an emergency logistical support system for agents of cormyr that will allow some people (mainly those who can afford it) to do shipping through them, for a price.

I think you would see the use of magic in public works, no doubt, but there would still be a sinister side to it, the constant what if in the back of lots of peoples minds... However things like travel cloaks are more often then not are, again, a privlidge of wealth and status.

Magic has a way of running down and corrupting (itself and others). It must never be confused with technology because magic when allowed to operate for extended periods of time is influenced by outside forces through sheer presence. The price (monetary and catastrophic) of magic is directly related to how long the effect lasts and what that effect does. Thats why most spells are so short. Thats why mythals are so screwy. Thats why you get magic swords and (rarely) magic walls. Why get a magic seige tower when you just enchant a giant give him full plate and make him wear a backpack filled with soldiers? When used on a large scale in things like civic works that cost becomes quite extreme. What happens when this goes haywire or gets shut down by a magical accident or sabotage (as it most likely will)?

Aaron.

 

[jester47]

Not only that, I'm afraid that, the opening paragraph of his biography, on page 178, makes me laugh aloud every time I read it.

I went back and read that, and thought about it. Then I burst out laughing. "Even though tennis balls are fuzzy, bounce, and are used to play tennis, they remain an enigma."

Aaron.

 

[jester47]

Re: Re: Re: Re: [FR] Campaign Setting interpretation diatribe

I think part of the issue is that there is quite a vocal contingent of FR fans who are quite obsessed with the MVPs of the setting.

...And everything else he said... -jester47

Patrick Y.

I have never seen that side of it Patrick, but now that you mention it, I can see it existing, and yes, that would really ruin it. So I will keep it like this:

Used at appropriate levels the notables can be used as NPCs. Thier access is by nature mostly limited to region of residence, and thier time is most likely commited elsewhere. Heroes will hear talk of them but almost never meet them. The chosen of Mystra are mentally unbalanced. All of them. Elminster, the silverhand sisters, blackstaff, all of them. However these insanities manifest themselves in different ways:

Simbuls violent and short temper, constant shapechangeing habit and poor hair grooming, storm silverhand's judge,jury and executioner attitude, not to mention elminsters... plus a level of randyness. Khelben's intimidation and manipulation and absoluteism in rules, and haunted past indicates some insanity, but he seems the most stable of the lot. Alustriel will cry when told an even moderatlely sad story, and for all indications her insanity makes her overemotional.

Elminster: Most likely insane. This is a result of old age and being a chosen of Mystra. He has not given a straight answer to a question in decades. Often crosses paths with heroes and offers information that lost its use only minutes before. Tends to wander. Has a strange obsession with geography of the realms. Known for many unfinished projects, most notably his collection of ecologies. It is theorised that his more recent adventures have resulted from attempts to con more powerful beings into killing him.

This helps to keep it in the Sword and Sorcery venue and not the soap opera venue.

Aaron

 

[Quinn]

I know what you are talking about. I sense it too. somthing does not mesh. Somthing is not clicking. And I think I know what it is now. I think it is the politics. There are huge stateless areas. There are few borders in the forgotten realms. And I think that messes with a lot of people. We live in a world that is divided into States, nations, provinces, counties, shires, and what not. There is only one place in out world that is unspoken for: Antarctica. So when the realms show up with Orgs that control regions in one place but have networks everywhere else, vast streaches of land untended and unclaimed, I think it throws us off. We are not prepared for that. And so nothing seems to have its place.

When you think of it as a sort of city state/nation-state/frontier hodgepodge then things start to work. you realise that organisations are "international." It seems to me that people in the realms are not into control of teritory but rather control of specific places or regular events (like trade). Once I realised that, things started to fall into place. It makes sense for D&D. And furher investigation of Cormyr indicates that they only control the cities and roads, everything else is just claimed by Cormyr.

Hope that helps.

Aaron.

I compare FR to Ravenloft in some ways. Every mythology, nation, or theme is represented somewhere on Faerun, and they don't always blend together very well, IMO. It's actually because of the hodgepodge of city-states, wilderness, and very advanced and powerful nations that I find it a little weird. On top of that, you have these very international organizations, as you said. Again, something about these orgs doesn't work for me, but that could be just a need for more development and background. Perhaps it's the fact they ARE international that doesn't sit right.

are you the same Quinn who used to post on the Astralwizard's mailing list, by the way?

Nope, it wasn't me.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

Not really. Two points. 1) Magic balances itself out. For every magical action there is an equal and opposite reaction. 2) Electricity does not change its properties based on who or what is arround to influence an active current. Magic does. Thus it is more unpredictable, and this unpredictability keeps it from working like a technology. That is why most spell effects (in almost all literature) are short or instant.

Point 1 is false. There is no opposite reaction to every magical act. Where you derive such a false statement from I cannot imagine.

Point 2 is also false, especially so in the realms.

Analogy: Electricity can be used to power a computer, a car, a lighting system, etc.

The Weave can be used to power a fireball spell, a teleport spell, a warding spell (Long-term spell), etc.

Very simple analogy, especially true in the FR. Magic is a force that has reshaped the development of many socieites, as it should be.

First I would liken running a magic shop to running a game store. Not everyone is interested in the product, most want to stay away from it. It is hard to turn a profit unless you have a loyal customer base, most fold after about two years, etc etc. Besides, most magic based services would cater to the privlidged. For instance, to bring in Berandor's example, the magical shipping company. Aurora's aint FedEx. I would make it an emergency logistical support system for agents of cormyr that will allow some people (mainly those who can afford it) to do shipping through them, for a price

It is true that not every culture would be comfortable with magic, but for large cities like Waterdeep, Calimport, the various cities in Sembia, Suzail, Silverymoon, all of Thay and other such places, magic would be fairly common.

Yes, only the upper middle class and above would be able to afford potent magic. Still, there are many stores in real life that cater to the Upper Middle Class and above, and I am sure in places like Thay even minor magical items exist in the homes of less affluent people.

The FR is one of the few worlds that has actually built into their economies magic shops and they even have one economy (Thay's) built upon the magic item industry. I find it "realistic" in the imaginary sense to see a strong magical component in FR economies. Wizards are more prevalent in the FR than any other game world I know of.

They also have a strong magical component invested in the various militaries as well, and I feel that would occur in any world where magic was prevalent. Balance of power would leave leaders of nations little other choice than to acquire equal magical power for dealing with enemy armies.

The Realms has its own feel. I like that it has tied a great deal of its feel to magic. The Realms deals with magical power in ways that many other worlds I have seen shy away from.

Most worlds either try for the "magic is very unique" feel such as is often seen in literature, where magic is practiced by a rare few eccentrics who just happen to join up with the heroes. Or the "magic is very evil" feel, where wizards have fought massive battles leaving vast areas of the world destroyed and the inhabitants wary and distrustful of magic.

FR went for the "magic is technology" feel for the majority of the world. They have many prominent wizards and priests who have created all kinds of magic items for uses for magic besides battle.

You have magic for traveling, magic for cleaning, magic for communication, magic for defense, magic for delivering. Basically, magic is involved in many aspects of the various cultures and wizards are viewed as a part of society save in the less civilized parts of Faerun.

I like this aspect of the Realms. I don't see why wizards wouldn't use magical power to obtain wealth and power in a society or be just as loyal to a given nation as a warrior type. The Realms is a magic-based world and it is different from many other worlds for this reason alone.

 

[Darrin Drader]

I'm afraid that, the opening paragraph of his biography, on page 178, makes me laugh aloud every time I read it.

That's no paragraph, my friend. It's a single sentence disguised as aparagraph.

Nevertheless, if more space were to be allotted to his exploits, he might seem like an interesting character to read about. I've certainly never used him in-game however, and have no intention to. In my games, the PC's are the heroes of the realm, and everything else is just background flavor. Drizzt would seriously throw that out of ballance should he do any more than shake hands with them and go on his way.

 

[hong]

The single reason I won't run a campaign in the Realms is because two of my players have read all the novels. I'm not interested in running a game in a setting where the players know that much about it. They're all great people, but it would take almost inhuman self control on their parts to avoid meta-game knowledge.

I think the 3E realms stuff has been beautifully done, and if I had a group of novices, I would gladly run it.

I summon forth more wisdom from _Robin's Laws of Good Gaming_:

Another key advantage of established worlds is that players who've read the source material bring a predetermined set of emotional associations to the gaming table. They've invested in the world before you roll the first die. Some folks criticize game companies whose supplements are heavy on background material and fiction snippets, complaining about the ratio of useful material to "fluff". It may not be apparent how useful so-called fluff can be to a GM, in laying the atmospheric groundwork for you. Let's say you have the party encounter an NPC whose appearance and mannerisms clearly mark him out as a member of a formidable and scary group. In a setting of your own creation, you have to stop and explain what the group is, what the signs are, and why the adventurers should be quaking in their boots. You're telling the PCs that the group is scary, and they'll accept this on an intellectual level. But it will be hard to make them feel it. If you're instead using an established setting that at least a couple of the players are familiar with, all you have to do is describe the NPC, including a few visual signifiers of his group affiliation. Without any further prompting, they'll react emotionally, exclaiming, "Oh, no! It's a Tremere!" (Or a Humakti, or whatever.) While reading the source material, they've already been shown, as opposed to merely told, why members of this group should creep them out.

Fluff ain't so fluffy as it looks.

If you are using an established setting, I strongly recommend that you allow your players to read any available supplements for it. Adventures you plan to use, or cannibalize, are obvious exceptions. But if you know you'll never use a particular adventure, try to get your players to read that, too. The more the players know and feel about their imaginary world, the better. Do this even when a setting tells you not to. It's easier to get people to distinguish between player knowledge and character knowledge than it is to get them emotionally invested in an imaginary world. Many game lines overestimate the emotional value of surprise. Players spend way too much time feeling off-balance and confused as it is. They're already wondering what's around the corner, who really belongs to the conspiracy they're tracking, what their enemies can do, and so on. It goes without saying that your players will be confused and puzzled for great stretches of any game session. Let the players, if not their characters, know what's happening in the macro level of the setting.

Emotional investment is more important than the preservation of the game designer's secrets.

 

[Oni]

That's really interesting Hong.

I find that I get more into characters, and care more about them and in general roleplay them better the more I know about the setting they're in. Personally I like knowing as much as possible about the world, the less thing that confuse you the player but should be commonplace to the character the better in my opinion.

 

[Fenes 2]

I DM and play in the FRs since over 10 years, and I have found the vast amount of cultures and regions to my liking. I can center a campaign on a particular region, and center the next in another spot without repeating myself each adventure, yet still have some continuity.

I'd like to comment on the nature of the realms. I am often baffled how set in stone the realms seem to be percieved. I my last two campaigns I picked and chose a lot, heavily modifying and altering magic/power level, history, cultures and NPCs without much trouble, and still preserving my view of the feeling of the realms. Most of the novels are used for some background, locations, minor NPCs, plot ideas and bits and pieces, not to define the world.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I never got into FR when it first came out ... it was taking the spotlight away from Greyhawk, which I didn't like.

I didn't come to the Realms until 3E, after playing BG/IWD. Now I run my campaign in the Realms. The variety, and vast level of detail, are great -- because I can get the flavor of a campaign I want, without having to do a tremendous amount of background work.

I find the trick to running a campaign in the Realms is to make it your Realms. Personally, I don't use any of the major (Greenwood, Salvatore, et al) characters and NPCs -- though I use a host of relatively minor ones. I've changed the history to fit (I hate "blow up the world" plots -- Shades are out). I have players who have read some of the novels, and who read the FRCS or other FR supplements, and my response to the occasional metagaming about plot is to steal from Ed Greenwood and say:

"Nothing within those pages is false, but not all of it may turn out to be true ..."

It seems to work. It may offend the purists who only want to play in the "canon" Realms, but I'd bet most players who dislike the Realms for whatever irrational reason would find it more to their liking -- since I've tried for a more Greyhawk feel with Realms names, history, and geography.

Make it your own.