FR, GH, AU - character power levels

[Nightfall]

There's nothing more powerful than Wish.

Broken spells didn't seem to be the big problem in the FRCS or MoF (except maybe a couple Druid spells--Blindsight, anyone?) Broken spells is much more the sin of Relics and Rituals (especially the first one).

Dinkle, get over it. Yeah so you're big bad vampire got toasted. It's your own damn fault. #1 NEVER use undead against Paladins that can get a 4th level paladin spell. Not unless they have protection from positive energy.

 

[maddman75]

FR tends to have a higher power level than other stuff. Just take a stroll through the famous Sultans of Smack thread that's (I'm sure) around here somewhere. See how many of them rely on a feat, spell, or item from the realms. Or how many work but then say 'and if you can use FRCS/MoF it's really sick'.

But IMO the best policy is to allow things on a case by case basis. Yes, even spells. Ask before you take it. That way nothing slips by that's broken or conflicts with your campaign style.

 

[Desdichado]

AU also has fewer direct damage spells. Characters (that use magic, anyway) are much more subtle. Although they initially appear more powerful at first blush, our experience with them over several sessions now is leading us to the conclusion that they are balanced with core material.

FR on the other hand, has a number of feats (background feats as well as magic feats) that would give them the edge over either, I think.

 

[Gez]

FR is much more powerful than core stuff.

Especially because FR effectively nerfs core stuff.

Exempli Gratias: Spell Focus was a core feat that was happy to give you a +2 bonus. Then arrive Greater Spell Focus that gives a +4 bonus, and Spellcasting Prodigy that gives a +1 bonus and stacks with the Focus feats.

Munchkin! Twink Munchkin! Broken Twink Munchkin!

Because SCP and GSF were too powerful, the Wizards decided to punish... The core feat, Spell Focus!

So yeah, FR is overpowered compared to GH; but that's partly because GH is downpowered compared to FR.

 

[LuYangShih]

Dinkle, get over it. Yeah so you're big bad vampire got toasted. It's your own damn fault. #1 NEVER use undead against Paladins that can get a 4th level paladin spell. Not unless they have protection from positive energy.

Nightfall, get over it. The fact is Relics And Rituals does have several broken spells. Other DMs have also voiced displeasure with the product. In fact, I have seen more complaints about Relics And Rituals than any other similar book on the market. At the very least, you need to modify a few of the spells, or outright ban them, to maintain balance.

You are usually quite accurate in your review of books, but you are obviously biased when it comes to material tied to your favorite setting. I am sure that if the book did not have that association, you would be far less defensive or forgiving of it.

 

[WayneLigon]

I don't see any difference between GH, FR or my home-brewed settings in power, since as the GM I decide what feats, prestige classes and everything else to allow. Anyone that doesn't make that decision and give the players a 'What I Allow In Campaign X' sheet, well, they deserve what happens.

I'll be running my first AU game soon, so I'll have a better handle on what the power level is between those settings; with all new core classes it's difficult to draw real comparison in my head. I have to see how things work out first.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

FR became famous for broken PrCs. Even with the 3.5 re-balancing they still usually provide juicy benefits and full spellcasting progression.

And then there's the Red Wizard. There were lots of complaints about Spell Power, but few about Circle magic. Did you know a Red Wizard could cast a 20th-level spell with that ability? Including Heighten Spell? Save DC +11? Yup, that's balanced

You can find broken spells and even feats in any product too. AU isn't free of that either - anyone seen bring down the moon?

If the DM is willing to say "no" to a few things (or maybe more than a few things) they shouldn't find most settings to be overpowered however.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I know I'm not supposed to double-post, but ENWorld continues to give me problems.

I wanted to point out that AU isn't free of overpowered stuff either.

I found two things I didn't like:

The Modify Spell feat (basically Empower Spell + some others), which lets you ignore the metacap, even though you're still paying a cost. (Note that spells like disintegrate in AU can't be affected by this feat, since they're not variable.)

Bring Down the Moon - this 8th-level spell requires a feat and a whole bunch of restrictions. It gives back all your spell slots, including 9th-level spell slots. It's balanced assuming the DM never lets the players or his NPCs use it.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

The Modify Spell feat (basically Empower Spell + some others), which lets you ignore the metacap, even though you're still paying a cost. (Note that spells like disintegrate in AU can't be affected by this feat, since they're not variable.)

Bring Down the Moon - this 8th-level spell requires a feat and a whole bunch of restrictions. It gives back all your spell slots, including 9th-level spell slots. It's balanced assuming the DM never lets the players or his NPCs use it.

I don't know much about bring down the moon. Strikes me as potentially no more unbalancing than a variety of 'remove from play' items and effects.

But Modify Spell seems to me to be very balanced. Keep in mind that, while it is more flexible, if you were using it in 3e you would essentially be getting 1.5 fireballs for the price of 2 fireballs.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It varies depending upon what you want in your campaign.

Since most of my campaigns are VERY epic in scale and tend to be inspired from videogames, I rarely have a problem with some 'ultimate' combo that trumps others.
Though I do like to make all choices equally as valid...

For most campaigns, that's not really acceptable.

FR is a smidgen over the line of what the Core Rules generally allow. Not game-shatteringly....nothing in FR will make the game unplayable...but it's enough to make things 'easy choices' or 'no-brainers'.

AU is more significantly over the line, but it assumes you won't be using the Core Rules anyway. AU is close to the realm of game-shatteringly, in a few cases. But if played with at it's own level, it's perfectly fine. It would make your halfling rogue a bit irked to see a quickling faen akashic with two feats at first level, though....the halfling rogue is just WEAKER by comparison.

But in FR, that halfling rogue may just have an extra +2/+2, or other minor something, that the GH halfling rogue doesn't.

Which is why I allow in things on only a case-by-case basis. Still, I'm generous. I always think that no matter how good the PC's roll and how great their combos are, I can challenge them...it's just about thinking bigger and tougher than them.