FR, GH, AU - character power levels

[darkdancer]

with regards to AU: don't forget that Monte himself thinks they don't match perfectly with the core classes. that's why the advancement is slightly different - I don't have my book with me, but you need more xp to raise your level than in FR or GH.

 

[Gez]

10% more, IIRC.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

FR characters should be no more powerful than core characters, and FR crunchy bits should be no more powerful than core crunchy bits.

Sean, this is no knock on your work. FR has many excellent things in it. It's the aggregate of FR products, not the individual crunchy bits, that allows more powerful characters. This problem is not unique to Forgotten Realms. Book creep with splatbook combos is an issue as well.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Indeed, power creep is a problem.

I know, FR can in no way be tested and honed as much as the Core Rules, and it's probably demanding too much of it to keep it at the same level.

Still...I know how cautious you guys can probably be, so why spellcasting prodigy? Why some of the cantankerous PrC abilities? Why 'more is better'?

That's, perhaps, the most ingrained flaw in FR. It's a catch-all category for everything awesome ever and then some. And in this hungry rush to gobble up settings and monsters and characters and weapons and style, it's going to have some unexpected problems. It's like too many drugs: a few are OK, and you can even have a lot if you balance them right, but the more you have the tuogher they are to balance. And with the *plop* of PrC's and Feats the FRCS had, it was like Jagerbombs....too many altering substances, too many directions, too much goodness all within one. It's bound to fall apart when it's devouring everything and still demanding more.

Which is actually more of a marketing problem then anything.

Thanks for taking the time to argue your point, Sean.

 

[Simulacrum]

FR became famous for broken PrCs. Even with the 3.5 re-balancing they still usually provide juicy benefits and full spellcasting progression.

And then there's the Red Wizard. There were lots of complaints about Spell Power, but few about Circle magic. Did you know a Red Wizard could cast a 20th-level spell with that ability? Including Heighten Spell? Save DC +11? Yup, that's balanced

You can find broken spells and even feats in any product too. AU isn't free of that either - anyone seen bring down the moon?

If the DM is willing to say "no" to a few things (or maybe more than a few things) they shouldn't find most settings to be overpowered however.

Actually the Red Wizard is nothing compared to 3.0.
....it became a complete no-choice for munchkins. Maybe for one trick ponys. Or dead horses.
Then you loose 4 schools of magic, thats absolutely devastating in terms of flexibility. Circle magic has still a limit. So it only works for BBEG and is nearly useles for players, because the DM is going to cut into your choice of powering up. Ok lets say you get +10 levels as circle leader and +20 levels as great circle leader? Whats the big deal.
Say we push the highest slot available 6th up to 9th, thats 3 levels gone. Then Maximize, another 3 levels then your effective caster level (against dispels and SR) by 4 and thats it. You pushed ONE spell. Great, that makes up for loosing FOUR schools of magic.....do the math. = Its +3 DC, +3 Spell power, and maximize THATS IT.
For my part the Red Wizard is a funky BBEG but absolutely useles for players due to the critical cut in flexibility. You are nothing more as a Sorceror/Wizard with a bit more OOOMPH when it comes to Metamagic.

Now please tell me where the big advantage of say +11 DC of one or max two spells is?
The Hero/Monster is probably not going to save the spell.....and?
Compared to the previous version where ALL your spells were +11 DC ALL the time without CIRCLE MAGIC!
Another thing is it just counts for 24 hours after that its gone, looks like its bad for adventuring too....
So either you stick to your circle in your warm enclave, or you have no benefit of it at all...

Circle Magic made up for the Red Wizards lack of Metamagic as they have to invest heavily in Magic Item making. As they have to work for the enclaves all the time. I think it would be a good idea to cap circle magic to +10(+15) and +20(25) for great circle leaders. That would make it balanced and not look so open ended in its power potential. (wich it isnt as long as the DM is not dumb)

 

[CRGreathouse]

Loresong Faen: +2 Int, -2 Str
Mojh: +2 Int, -2 Con
Verrik: +2 Wis, -2 Cha
Quickling Faen: +2 Dex, -2 Str
Giant: +2 Str, -2 Dex
Litorian: +2 Dex, -2 Wis
Sibeccai: +2 Con, -2 Int

What was that about unbalanced stats? The only one that comes close is the Litorian (who gets a Dex bonus in exchange for an Int penalty), but I don't think anyone gets anywhere near as good a deal as the Dwarf gets (+2 Con, -2 Cha).

Problematic stat adjustments aren't decided just by total modifier (the half-orc would be weaker without the +2 S/-2 I&Ch), but by usefulness for a given character. Elves have -2 Con, which hurts all classes, while dwarves have -2 Cha, which doesn't hurt fighters much.

The Loresong Faen has an even more extreme form of bias here -- the Int bonus is not offset by the Str penalty, since a caster has very little need for Str but a strong need for Int, a primary spellcasting stat. The race might be fine, I don't know -- it depends on its other abilities -- but those are better adjustments than any core race has. Heck, they're better than the sun elf, and I don't allow sun elves in my world...

 

[Estlor]

Loresong Faen: +2 Int, -2 Str
Mojh: +2 Int, -2 Con
Verrik: +2 Wis, -2 Cha
Quickling Faen: +2 Dex, -2 Str
Giant: +2 Str, -2 Dex
Litorian: +2 Dex, -2 Wis
Sibeccai: +2 Con, -2 Int

What was that about unbalanced stats?

The standard D&D concept is physical ability scores are equal to twice mental ability scores. Therefore, a bonus/penalty in a single physical score needs a penalty/bonus in TWO mental scores (or a double penalty/bonus in a single one) to offset them.

Considering that, we have the Loresong Faen with a negative imbalance (Str penalty > Int bonus), the Mojh with a negative imbalance (Con penalty > Int bonus), the litorian with a positive imbalence (Dex bonus > Wis penalty), and the sibeccai with a positive imbalance (Con bonus > Int penalty).

Naturally, racial abilities may offset these adjustments, but from a purely statistical standpoint, the litorian and sibeccai races are "better" than core and the loresong and mojh are "worse" than core.

 

[DMScott]

The standard D&D concept is physical ability scores are equal to twice mental ability scores. Therefore, a bonus/penalty in a single physical score needs a penalty/bonus in TWO mental scores (or a double penalty/bonus in a single one) to offset them.

Not quite. Strength and Dexterity are the only two scores with that characteristic (you can check pg 24 of your 3.0 DMG or pg 173 of your 3.5 DMG for the chart - might be in the SRD, I haven't checked). The Litorian is the only AU race that breaks this equivalency, the others either follow the chart or give a greater penalty (which is permitted).

Arguably, the chart should be different in AU because even the "minor" AU spellcasters can get up to 7th level spells and get spells at 1st level as well as having access to a common spell list, so a low spellcasting attribute is more of a restriction. But if Monte has such a chart, he hasn't published it.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Actually the Red Wizard is nothing compared to 3.0.
....it became a complete no-choice for munchkins. Maybe for one trick ponys. Or dead horses.

I agree it's no match for 3.0.

Then you loose 4 schools of magic, thats absolutely devastating in terms of flexibility. Circle magic has still a limit. So it only works for BBEG and is nearly useles for players, because the DM is going to cut into your choice of powering up. Ok lets say you get +10 levels as circle leader and +20 levels as great circle leader? Whats the big deal.

Well, those 1 or 2 spells per day that are guaranteed to succeed

Say we push the highest slot available 6th up to 9th, thats 3 levels gone. Then Maximize, another 3 levels then your effective caster level (against dispels and SR) by 4 and thats it. You pushed ONE spell. Great, that makes up for loosing FOUR schools of magic.....do the math. = Its +3 DC, +3 Spell power, and maximize THATS IT.

Perhaps I shouldn't say it's overpowered, just not well balanced. It's one of those high-power/high-cost situations that took second edition psionics and broke dozens of campaigns over it's leathery brown back. (And I'm a psi-fan!)

I've seen this for magic, psionics, and occasionally for non-supernatural stuff as well, and each time it doesn't turn out well. Usually (for a player) you're weak most of the day, saving your energy for the BBEG, and all of a sudden the DM wants to kill your player!

For my part the Red Wizard is a funky BBEG but absolutely useles for players due to the critical cut in flexibility. You are nothing more as a Sorceror/Wizard with a bit more OOOMPH when it comes to Metamagic.

PrC are a DM tool - you can use them for NPCs and still break them.

Now please tell me where the big advantage of say +11 DC of one or max two spells is?

I wish I could explain Psychofeedback to you... the big advantage is that the spell is basically guaranteed to work.

Suppose I took Enchantment as my specialty and start using Dominate Monster all the time. Does the DC boost apply to the saves to break control as well? I can control him for 18 hours or so? I get a cohort for the day without using up XP? It's a good thing Dominate doesn't really last days anymore, or I could break that even worse.

The Hero/Monster is probably not going to save the spell.....and?
Compared to the previous version where ALL your spells were +11 DC ALL the time without CIRCLE MAGIC!

Like I said, I think the 3.0 version was a lot munchier.

Another thing is it just counts for 24 hours after that its gone, looks like its bad for adventuring too....
So either you stick to your circle in your warm enclave, or you have no benefit of it at all...

Circle Magic made up for the Red Wizards lack of Metamagic as they have to invest heavily in Magic Item making. As they have to work for the enclaves all the time. I think it would be a good idea to cap circle magic to +10(+15) and +20(25) for great circle leaders. That would make it balanced and not look so open ended in its power potential. (wich it isnt as long as the DM is not dumb)

I don't think it does. The costs are weird, but can be managed.

I agree, the DM should cap or otherwise balance things - it's better than complaining. I just wish the DMs at WotC would try a little harder sometimes.

Wish-type spells includes Limited Wish, which is seventh level and considerably more useful in the general case. If I had a choice as a player, I wouldn't trade Limited Wish for Bring Down The Moon straight-up, let alone as a higher level spell plus a feat.

I think it's a high-cost/high-power situation that doesn't work well. Plus, if I could, I'd take both Good thing that's not possible.

 

[Simulacrum]

Hey Psi thank you for the answer. Yes agreed the PrC is high cost high power.
I think thats not ok, cap the power cut the cost. Thats the best way to go. I hate the thought of loosing 2 schools completely and 2 others from level 4 or 5. The cost is ueberhigh. And circle magic is fine but it needs a tight cap. (see above) 10 levels for CL and 20 for GCL.
I think that would do the trick.
Cut the specialization cost to 3 schools, or give out more bonus spells or something to compensate....