[FR]NPC's with PC orgins???

[Oni]

Ok, this is just a curiousity question on my part, but I figure I can tap into the vast amount of knowledge available on this board to answer it. Which Forgotten Realms NPC's started out as player characters of various designers and whatnot? How has being published changed them from their origninal concept (I'm sure this is a largely unanswerable question but maybe a couple of you guys know of entertaining anecdotes)?

 

[Amrynn Moonshadow]

i'm sure elminster was ed greenwood's char (or pet NPC when he DM'd), and some of the sacred cow npc's were his player's characters (when he DM'd). I am talking of course of dove, and the rest of the 7 sisters, and those knights of myth drannor, who in all their epic-ness, are like 6th level or something, saving the realms with their +6/+1 bab (for the fighter types...)

 

[arwink]

From memory, I recall hearing that most of the knights of myth Drannor were PC's at one point or another.

 

[AJA]

The Knights of Myth Drannor (Florin, Torm, et al) and the Crazed Venturers (inc. Nain Keenwhistler, Tolgar Anuvien, and Malchor Harpell) were PC characters in Ed's original home games.

Elminster and certain of the Seven Sisters made appearances, but were never actually played by Ed. Volo neither, as far as I can tell.

Gamalon Idogyr (Rock of Bral and later LOI) was a part of Steven Schend's home campaigns, and the Moonshadows (P&P under the House of the Moon write-up) are from Eric Boyds.

IIRC, Realms loremaster George Krashos has a dragon named after him in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark and the infamous bountyhunter Sayvels aka'Pillihp (aka Sleyvas aka Phillip Wallace) has also made an appearance or two in published products. Steven and Eric were cool like that

Not sure, but I bet most of the named characters in the City of Raven's Bluff supplement are someone's PCs.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Piratecat]

AJA, welcome to the boards!

 

[AJA]

Thanks! I was around for some of the previous incarnations, as well. Lurked mostly, although I did contribute in some of the "Forgotten Relams is for Powergaming Munchkins" threads.

And, I must say, your Story Hours rock. In fact, I think I'm going to go do some catching up right now!

 

[Seraphael]

i'm sure elminster was ed greenwood's char (or pet NPC when he DM'd), and some of the sacred cow npc's were his player's characters (when he DM'd). I am talking of course of dove, and the rest of the 7 sisters, and those knights of myth drannor, who in all their epic-ness, are like 6th level or something, saving the realms with their +6/+1 bab (for the fighter types...)

I am almost positive that any of the "sacred cow" NPC's that were in fact NPC's in Ed Greenwoods campaigns were just that, NPC's. I remember reading one interview with Ed where he responded to a complain that the Knights of Myth Drannor (who were in fact PC's at one point) were to low in level for their abilities. His response was that they manipulated and were manipulated by a number of powerful NPCs (possibly Storm, Dove, Sylune et al.) in his campaign, which was (despite the overwhelming number of opinions to the contrary) a social/political campaign.

As far as Elminster goes, I'm not even sure if he was featured in their campaign, as he seems to have had a more important role as the realms spokesperson to the real world and may have been invented specifically for that role (obviously if this is the case then he has been fleshed out considerably since then). If he was featured in their campaign, it was likely more in the role he has in some of the earlier novels (Shadowdale and the Finders Stone Trilogy) where he is portrayed as a manipulator and a sage rather than someone who likes to get out and harass Manshoon with a few spare fireballs now and then.

I also seem to recall that the Company of Crazed Venturers (based out of Waterdeep) predated the Knights of Myth Drannor, meaning that the dalelands area was likely detailed after the North. I am willing to bet that a number of the major NPC's in the area were featured in Ed's campaign there. I don't doubt that Mirt and Durnam were PC's at one point but I'm more inclined to believe that Khelben was an NPC (with a role similar to the NPC's in his dalelands campaign), but thats just a gut feeling.

Anyway, despite rumors to the contrary, Ed and his group were hardly powergamers.

 

[AJA]

More Ed quotings than you can shake a stick at!

I also seem to recall that the Company of Crazed Venturers (based out of Waterdeep) predated the Knights of Myth Drannor, meaning that the dalelands area was likely detailed after the North. I am willing to bet that a number of the major NPC's in the area were featured in Ed's campaign there. I don't doubt that Mirt and Durnam were PC's at one point but I'm more inclined to believe that Khelben was an NPC (with a role similar to the NPC's in his dalelands campaign), but thats just a gut feeling.

Pretty much. I found the interview you're thinking of -- its on my webpage under "Pages From the Sages." The direct URL is http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/sages.htm

Excerpts follow below:

The Knights of Myth Drannor are just one of the 'Real Player Character' groups in the Realms, and I agree that in published Realmslore to date, their levels do seem low. None of the direct lore has been written by me (John Nephew did the original FR7 writeups, using some original character sheets), and none of it has been in products that tried to tell you all about the Knights...in effect, all you've seen are brief 'highlights,' perhaps as modern-day folks might put on their resumes.

The truth is that the Knights have accomplished what many low-level groups can in a 'roleplaying first' campaign: feats that seem beyond their capabilities. How? Well, first, some characters have retired and been replaced by others; you're not seeing a stable, small band of heroes doing "all that." Second, the Knights have manipulated others into helping them, and been forced or manipulated into helping others...and these others have included Khelben, Laeral, Elminster, Storm, The Simbul, Sylune, Dove, and many senior Harpers (with Dove becoming a permanent member). With help like that, you or I could probably roll up an impressive list of victories. Third, don't believe all you read: in order to increase their influence (particularly with Florin serving as envoy, and speaking for Mourngrym -- who, like Dove, Storm, et al, is a DM-run NPC) the Knights have 'taken credit' for some work that has largely been done by others. Harpers like to keep low profiles and let others take credit; it helps to keep them personally effective and focus Zhent (or Cult, or Thayan, or Sembian merchant) anger/avenging plots elsewhere. In addition, many deities meddled with unwitting agents during the Time of Troubles; a lot of what you read of everyone's heroics in the Avatar books and elsewhere can be considered to be 'mortals unwittingly augmented/manipulated by desperate deities.'

In short, the Knights were dragged into a lot of their heroics by Elminster (not "take care of this, will ye?" but rather by manipulation), and in turn hauled a lot of powerful allies into the picture whenever they were in over their heads. They have become tireless workers-of-intrigue, and aren't above running away when they encounter foes they can't handle. Any energetic group of adventurers in a 'roleplaying first' campaign can accomplish a lot if they learn fast, get their share of luck, and plunge right in to the adventuring. Someday I'd like to tell all of you more of the tales of the Knights...and I'll be happy to answer specific queries about them, or anything else about the Realms, when I can snatch time enough. As long as we're all having fun, it's worth all the work....

Also, Ed says this about the Seven Sisters:

The Seven Sisters were around in the Realms from the very beginning (1967), though at first I knew only that there were a large number of silver-haired, tall, powerful, beautiful she-siblings...the number didn't climb to seven until around 1978, and I deliberately left the seventh slot 'vacant,' as a 'loose end' for either TSR or individual DMs to fill in...

One more snippet of interest from Ed:

However, my very first Company of Crazed Venturers play session involved a visit to UnderMountain, wherein a first-level fighter fell through a pit trap...(and via a magical gate which the magic item he was unwittingly carrying activated) into Laeral's lap, as she sat soaking in a large tub (what we moderns might call a 'hot tub') with her sister Alustriel, trading gossip about an upcoming MageFair! His subsequent, ah, 'skillful diplomacy' earned him a magical relocation THROUGH the nearest closed door, into the waiting hands of two rather surprised young-and-eager-male-magic-user apprentices, who were waiting for their turn in the tub. They mind-reamed him, jotted down the operation of the gate and relieved him of its magical trigger...and then (under Laeral's orders) teleported him right back into the Company's midst...naked, weaponless, dripping wet, and smelling strongly of Alustriel's forty-herbs bath mix! The funniest part of the play session was the complete refusal of the other players to believe his (stone-cold-truthful) account of what had happened to him. However, he got his revenge on them some years later, when the Company met formally with Laeral, and she winked and sweetly asked him to go and get the bath ready...

 

[AJA]

Ack!

Nevermind.....double post, sorry