FR: Players Guide to Faerun is out what do you think?

[Sammael]

Hmmm. The Eye of Horus-Re requires four ranks in a skill that is cross-class for clerics, and a feat that certainly isn't very high on any cleric's wishlist. Still not enough to balance it out, but burning a feat on Alertness is not something many people like to do.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Demon Princes propping up again as problems eh? Well, WoTC does have a book on the undead coming out and Orcus is one of the primary masters of the undead regardless of what sphere he's in. Perhaps like Loth and Tiamat, they'll have different versions of him that can fill in different niches depending on what campaign setting you're playing in.

For example, his role in the new campaign setting, if he even has one, has yet to be seen.

On regional feats....has anyone changed anyone else's mind on the reasoning of the power level of the feats yet? It's pretty much the same arguement on page 4 that it was on page 1. Seriously, let it go. No-one here is going to suddenly wake up and say, "Gee, that was right!"

 

[Pseudonym]

Since it is the Player's Guide, I imagine that there's not much in the form of monsters, templates and magic items but I've seen at least a mention of magic items or item properties. Any word on those?

There are no monsters or templates given. Regarding magic items, there is a small section. A few new armor and weapon properties are given. None seem especially overpowered or useless to me. Most were kind of "meh". The death ward armor property, for example, is a +2 bonus that confers a death ward upon the wearer for up to 7 minutes a day. A nice touch is that it is automatically activated when the wearer is exposed to a death effect or negative energy.

Most of the items given have names and a bit of history, but mechanically are nothing special. The Dragonheart armor, worn by a great king etc. is mechanically dwarf sized +1 red dragon hide scale male that gives fire resistance 10. I like the history given for these items, and wish more had these little blurbs attached to them in other suppliments. It makes it a bit more interesting from the bardic lore perspective than saying just another +2 mace.

Some of the wonderous items I can see putting into my game, as they present interesting situations. Tasmia's Heart is an elaborate black silk bustier adorned with gems that acts as a ring of freedom and a helm of underwater action. I know a player who is going to want this, but will balk at wearing a ladies clothing. What does he do, gain the effects of items he has been searching for, by wearing frilly black lace, or insist on being a manly man and forego the item's benifits.

 

[dreaded_beast]

Interesting stuff on Orcus. Thanks for the info. I've held a fascination with the DnD tanar'ri and baatezu ever since 3.0 came out, heh.

Anyways, we may have to wait and hear more about what the deal is with Orcus. This is not a big thing for me, since I consider this a somewhat "off-the-wall" campaign hook. Perhaps the PCs can find out the secret behind the truth of Orcus' status? I remember a poster in this thread even mentioned creating an adventure around that idea.

Any modules presented in here, akin to the Green Bones and Red Wizard modules in the FRCS? (Heh, probably not since this is the "Player's" Guide to Faerun.)

 

[Pseudonym]

Any modules presented in here, akin to the Green Bones and Red Wizard modules in the FRCS? (Heh, probably not since this is the "Player's" Guide to Faerun.)

Nope.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

And here, finally, is the real crux of the issue. How many of you people who are complaining about balance issues have actually played a 3.0 game set in the Forgotten Realms?

I've been running a game set in the Realms since about a month after the FRCS went on sale. In my experience, not one of the many players who have created characters in my game have taken any of the regional feats. Not a single one. Why? Because in their 3.0 incarnations they never seemed as useful as the general feats. Although perhaps balanced compared to the PHB feats, none of my players has ever felt that a single regional feat would have actual utility.

As a DM I'm happy that the 3.5 regional feats got a bump in power. It makes them more attractive, which means that my players are more likely to use them when designing new characters. My kudos go to the designers for actually paying attention to how the stuff they design was getting used.

One Regional Feat I STILL love for my Sun Elf Wizard is...Mind Over Body. Hooah!

PCs usually took Regional feats in my games, but I rarely saw them take more than one.

 

[jasamcarl]

Use the feats and have fun with 'em. I get their reasoning, and I can accept it, it's just a kind of annoying example of FR simply being 'better' than the core rules......which is something I thought was mostly in the past....so it's a bit of a booo........



Well, if that's the only measure, why not just give everyone except those with good hp and BAB proficiency in every weapon, since it's just going to weaken the party anyway if they actually use those powers?

Actually, It would make very little difference, especially after 1st level. It mostly there to reinforce in the player's mind what role the classes are best suited for.



No, they don't, because a character could take, say, Scribe Scroll at first level and have the exact same effect regardless of the time scale. The cost of EVERY feat is 'you can't get other feats.' Simply dictating a level at which they are to be chosen doesn't increase the COST, it just puts limits on the feat's versatility.

Scribe scroll actually compares quite favorably to most of the regional feats. But in fact at high levels it does poorly in terms of economy of scale for the benchmark combat spells. But that's besides the point. Magic users still have their chains, though they're less dramatic. I'd still rather take spell focus.


Well, I look at it this way. I"m a first level wizard from place who wants to wield a longsword. I can take one of two feats, one of which is Martial Weapon Proficiency, and one of which is the regional feat that gives me all Martial Weapons.......hmmmmmm..............

The regional and thank god i was given that choice. If I want to take a sucky feat, I atleast want to suck in style.

Or, I'm a first level anything from place who wants to boost my saves. I can take one of two feats, either a +2 save feat, or +1 all saves and AC feat.......hm..............

I'd still rather take spell focus. Luck of Heroes would come in a close second. Wow, I have a choice..should I be crying?

Or even, I'm a first level anything who wants to be quick....I can take one of two feats, Improved Initiative, or a regional feat that gives me +1 to all saves and AC........well, I can always take Improved Init. later......hmmm......

First level anything, bud? If I were a first level fighter I would head immediatly into power attack and great cleave. Once that's done, I'd go for weapon focus, weapon specialization. Oh..and then the dex and int chains (thank god for ability boosting items), because of all that beautiful circumstantial damage. What do you know, I've reached epic and the chains are extended....

See, this "regional feats are more powerful" thing makes players want to choose them, which links them to the world. Helpful. But the benefit to Whirlwind Attack is the same if I get it now, or if I get it in three levels because of my regional feat....that benefit doesn't significantly decrease at higher levels. The regional feats, baring exceptional circumstances, are 'no brainer' feats....you'd be a fool NOT to take it. They seem to have been designed specifically that way.....it makes someone from one region significantly different from someone from another, and makes sure that difference is reflected in the party.

So to reiterate. For those with the feats to afford it its usually better to simply go into another chain. Now is it possible to get to a high enough level, with enough feats wracked up that you would be better now if you had taken a regional feat? Sure, but then regional feats are only unbalanced for a game that goes on a really long time, and even then their impact would be minimal. Stop at any fixed level from 1-20 and I could recommend another feat (with the possible exception of luck of heroes) .

But if I'm a wizard from place who wants to wield a longsword, what would ever be my incentive to pick up Martial Weapon Proficiency? I would say that any one feat that makes any other feats seem like bad choices in the circumstances in which they would be chosen is 'overpowered.' The +2/+2 feats aren't overpowered in this respect (+10% on two different rolls is certainly a significant advantage when you use those rolls a lot), Improved Initiative isn't overpowered in this respect (+20% to one roll is a big bonus, if you want to avoid being flat-footed), Skill Focus isn't overpowered in this respect (+15% to one roll is a bit weak, but not enough to make it not worthwhile).

Then you must hate power attack, dodge and its ilk, because they are almost always taken in preference to the feats you listed. And by virtue of the fact that you cited the +2/+2s as being worthwhile balance wise, I'd have to question whether or not you've thought this through.

The regional feats in the book shouldn't stand up against cleave or improved trip any more than they have to stand up to whirlwind attack....they should have to stand up to feats without prerequisites, which they are obviously more powerful than.

Uh, no. They should be somewhere inbetween, where the immediate benefit of the feat compensates for the level based delay (which, yes, means that you are less powerful at any given level) in noting plunging into a feat chain. I.e. they should be balanced, which the underpowered skill boosters, martial weapon proficiencies and the like clearly are not.

If that's cool with you, go, have fun. But I think that's bad design-fu.

I think its rockem sockem design foo. But of a more nuanced variety. Actually, that's not true. Its something I could take or leave, but I think you are overstating your case.

 

[Syltorian]

Speaking of Justicar of Tyr, would someone with the book mind giving a rundown of it? I'm still waiting for my copy of the book, and the suspense is killing me.

I'd like to hear about him too, as well as about the Initiate of Tyr feat. Can someone please tell us what it does, even if only in outline?

I also couldn't find any spells with (Tyr) in the Magic of Faerûn (though several of Velsharoon and other gods which don't seem to get Initiate feats) Does the Triad (Torm, Tyr, Ilmater) get to use the same 'specialist' spells? And do the Initiate feats all give the same number and levels of spells?

Thanks

 

[jasamcarl]

Don't get me wrong; I've designed as many "smackdown" characters as the next guy. But as you say, the game is about options. If these regional feats patently outclass other feats, then that makes some choices flat-out better than others. That limits options and leads to more homogenous character designs. This is why I say it is a big deal when designers start getting in that mode where the content of each new product is just a little more powerful than the content in previous products. A variety of choices should be available.

This seems to contradict your point below, which implies that the dm determinant of what is powerful through choices of encounters and the like (though for balanced encounters i think there is less choice than what you let on).





All I can infer from your posts is that you're of that school of thought that any feat that makes for a more offense-oriented character (like Cleave or Improved Trip) is inherently better than a defensive feat (like Luck of Heroes or Blooded), which in turn is inherently better than a feat that boosts skills. Perhaps you buy into that belief strongly enough that you regard it as a tautology, which is you don't bother to support it beyond "dude, you're off your rocker". The truth is, it's just one subjective outlook on how to play the game, albeit a very popular one.

Maybe in your campaign skill enhancing feats don't amount to much--I've certainly played in campaigns where they didn't--but I've also been in campaigns where Cleave was considered nigh-useless (because all anyone seems to fight are individual powerhouse monsters) and Improved Trip is unheard of (because the powerhouse monsters are too hard to trip). And within that subset of campaigns, there were some where characters constantly had to make saving throws and skill checks and got plenty of milieage out of save-and-skilll-enhancing feats.

I won't even address skill balance, because that SHOULD be obvious. But yes, attack related abilities are almost always preferable to defense attributes, because offensive ability does a double duty; it both dishes out damage and prevents you from taking damage in a shorter (and thus more resource light) period of time. And, as one goes up in level, offensive abilities tend to rise exponenetially and defensive (hps, ac, saves) in a more linear fashion. For fighters this is because circumstantial offensive abilities tend to stack. For mages, its just because of the way spells scale. As to feats, its almost always better to go with one that helps offense, because you'll get greater returns.

And yes, it is possible for a dm to skew encounters to inordinatly reward defensive abilites. Even then, the constant offense feats that do come into use (weapon focus/specialization, spell focus, metamagicetc) would provide greater returns. And even with the circumstantial ones, they have the inherent benefit of being within the the means of the player to activate (exception being cleave and combat reflexes) as oppossed to he dm (with saves and skills, the latter more arbitrarily), which is a benefit because their effects are graditated, no binary. Besides which, I think you are underestimating Improved Trip.

So your point is taken, though I their are inherent combat benefits for offense, which might be mitigated by dms, but not removed.

 

[jasamcarl]

Honestly, as said before, the Martial Weapon Prof feat isn't even the worst of it. But for an example. So you can use a martial bludgeoning weapon against those with DR/bludgeon, and a slashing weapon against those with DR/slashing.

Consider Bullheaded, get +2 to all Will Saves, and can no longer become shaken. That has a significant impact...

Or Fleet of Foot contrasted against Dash. (10ft v 5 ft).

And a number of others which are effectively, Other Feats +1.

None of which are particularly non balancing. You need better examples.