[FR] Sun Elves as evil or neutral instead of good?

[Arnwyn]

Many sun elves *are* in fact evil (LE to boot). The Starym (regardless of what another poster in that other thread tried to imply) were quite evil, and despicable.

Not all elves are good - certainly not all the sun elves.

 

[Black Omega]

Relaly, about the only thing I agree with Gez on is that Sun Elves don't really well fit the CG label applied to most elves and they do sound close to LN or LE. And the breeding with demons that produced the Fey'ri was decidedly evil. It's true, DnD is not a game of moral relativism (sp?). But I don't see how FR elves in general are the pathetic shadows Gez paints.

 

[LuYangShih]

Sun Elves cannot be Lawful. Why? That would prohibit them from worshipping just about all of the Elven pantheon. Who, for some reason, are all Chaotic, IIRC. Lawful Elves always seem to have to go for those Human deities. So, unless you want the Sun Elves to begin worshipping Bane or Helm...

 

[Gez]

Sun Elves cannot be Lawful. Why? That would prohibit them from worshipping just about all of the Elven pantheon.

No. Not from worshipping. From having clerics that cast spells -- there's quite a distinction. It's the problem of the "eldeth veluuuuthra." They do worship Corellon and the other dude and dudess of the seldarine, but can't get any effective cleric. T'is an annoyance for them, as every party need a cleric, but this don't make them to think a little harder on the whys they can't get any cleric. They have thought to ally with dark elves for this reason -- they could get the clergy of Lolth, Vhaeraun, and others with them.

 

[Gez]

By the way, I think I have found why elves need forever to train (see starting age for classes, and old fluff about bladesinger and high mages): they act out of character for a chaotic good alignment, and thus don't get interpretation XP, so they level more slowly!

 

[I'm A Banana]

Yeah, Sun Elves as far as I know don't seem much CG in the majority. And the way Gex paints them as a fading empire makes me think of the Tolkien elves as opposed to the Sun elves specifically. Tolkien elves seemed very 'Lawful Loser' as Gez put it.

IMHO, I can only somewhat re-interpret Sun Elves as CG by trying to explain what they do as CG behavior. Say, for instance, that they value individual freedom over order -- that doesn't mesh with how they arrange empires and don't like those who aren't in them, or in their view of the world as a heirarchy with themselves at the top. Say they overall have compassion for each other...well, I imagine even truly wicked creatures can at least respect, if not love, other truly wicked creatures.

They certainly seem hardcore LN to me, bordering on LE (with the mating with fiends). They divide an categorize, they mistreat and disrespect, they verge on outright seeking out the other races and hurting them, and it seems only their penchant for whining about things stops them from doing that.

Now, why are they CG in the book? This, I have to attribute to 'Teh Kewl Factor.' CG is 'Teh Kewlist' alignment, because it doesn't imply being a stick-in-the-mud Lawful type, and it implies being all rebellious and chic and you can still be heroic. Elves, of course, are 'Teh Kewlist' race...being...y'know....elves and all...honestly one of the most-loved of any fantasy race because they're all cool and agile and sexy and artsy and the like the environment and they of course have to be CG, because being 'Teh Kewlist' means you have to be the best at everything, even alignment, so you can be heroic and rebllious and free just like EVERYONE WANTS TO BE!

This, I imagine, may also be part of the reason people would fight against them being anything but CG.

Now, most D&D elves as described are pretty decently CG. They're flighty and whimisical and they preserve individual freedom and the joys of hugging trees. They're also slightly biased, but that's just because they like who they are a lot, not because they don't like the others (Sort of an "I'm cool, I don't care what you are" attitude).

Sadly, most Tolkien elves are pretty hardcore Lawful.

And when D&D tries to hyrbidize them, translations stop being effective...

Lawful Elves always seem to have to go for those Human deities. So, unless you want the Sun Elves to begin worshipping Bane or Helm...

Or you make up a new god....think of it. SunElf scholar comes out of his musty tomes to say "I've done it! I've discovered it! There is a power above Corellon Larethian! It is the divine truth of the magnificent Llaweyellnae! So elvish, even we highest of elves have trouble pronouncing her name! She is the mother of Corellon, who was her child by the rape of Grummsh, which she could've stopped, of course, but didn't want to because the Ways of Gods are Mysterious, and Our Gods are the Most Mysterious! Anyhoo, that's why they faught! Because Corellon didn't like his birthright! And this proves we're purer!"

Sounds at least partially believable to me.

 

[Alzrius]

They do worship Corellon and the other dude and dudess of the seldarine, but can't get any effective cleric. T'is an annoyance for them, as every party need a cleric, but this don't make them to think a little harder on the whys they can't get any cleric. They have thought to ally with dark elves for this reason -- they could get the clergy of Lolth, Vhaeraun, and others with them.

That's true for that elven supremecist group, but the rest of the sun elves have Seldarine clerics as normal...so they must be CG or close to it, which LN and LE are not.

 

[Gez]

Kids at home, just remember that this is Gez's personal interpretation, and does not reflect things the way they actually are in any sense.

I know you don't like me, Alzi, but nonetheless, I'll copy a big paragraph of text just for you. From Lords of Darkness, page 131. First paragraph, left column, you can't miss it.

One of the most notable aspects of the organization is that it does not include any divine spellcasters. The members of the Eldreth Veluuthra worship only the deities of the elven pantheon, but -- paradoxically -- none of the elven deities are of an alignment that is favorable to the organization. Some of the Eldreth believe that the group should admit drow clerics to gain easier access to healing and restorative magic. But others find that notion abhorrent and refuse to take the easy way out. They are certain that, eventually, one of the elven deities (probably Corellon Larethian) will recognize the merit of the group's mission. On that day, the Victorious Blade of the People will admit its first clerics to the ranks of membership. Until then, it must rely on the open market and the goodwill of sympathizers for healing magic. (Cash, therefore, has become of great importance to the organization, and some of its missions are now directed specifically at generating coin with which to purchase healing potions.)

I quoted the whole paragraph, without any omission. The passage I put in bold is exactly what I was saying, and what you dismissed as "not reflecting things the way they actually are".

 

[Alzrius]

Ah, there's the problem, that's just for that elven supremecist group, and not all sun elves as a whole (which is what I thought you were talking about). I went back and edited my previous post so that its more correct now. My bad!

And Gez, I don't dislike you. It's totally possible for people to have differences of opinion and debate over them (since that isn't arguing) and not have it get all personal and result in dislikes. We've disagreed quite often, and sometimes our tone in doing so has been rather, ahem, brusque, but we've never just been insulting or outrightly rude to each other. I think you're a really nice guy.

 

[Gez]

Ah, there's the problem, that's just for that elven supremecist group, and not all sun elves as a whole (which is what I thought you were talking about). I went back and edited my previous post so that its more correct now. My bad!

You skipped one sentence, then:

It's the problem of the "eldeth veluuuuthra." They do worship Corellon and the other dude and dudess of the seldarine, but can't get any effective cleric.

Your quoting began just after the underlined...

And Gez, I don't dislike you.

I know, I know, just teasing.