xoth.publishing
Swords against tentacles!
I forgot to add to my first answer, "that is, if the target of the spell decides to go adventuring instead of getting on with the "fertility business"...
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I forgot to add to my first answer, "that is, if the target of the spell decides to go adventuring instead of getting on with the "fertility business"...
)
Yaarel
🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage
@xoth.publishing
Thinking on it more.
For the gritty low magic setting, maybe the following.
Eliminate Wizard, Sorcerer, and Cleric completely.
Reserve the Druid exclusively for the prehuman races, maybe especially the giants. Giants associate with elements (frost, fire, cliffs, storms), and according to reallife ‘wastelands of the north’, many giants shapechange into an animal − normal animals as well as monstrous giant animals. If a DM gives a player permission to play a Druid, it means there has been contact with and training from a giant, and the DM and the player need to figure out how this happened.
The above effectively removes four full casters from the game. This already helps ensure a lower magic feel. Removal of the Cleric can help reduce dependence on healing magic.
Two full casters remain: Bard and Warlock. Each can be on opposite sides of the cultural spectrum.
The Bard with its more shamanic magic, takes on some of the ‘noble savage’ tropes among the Savage and Nomad cultures.
Oppositely, the Warlock with its more foul magic, takes on some of the ‘corrupt civilization’ tropes among the Decadent and Degenerate cultures.
In both cases, full spellcaster − powerful magic − mainly happens at the periphery of civilization.
The Cultist is super important for the Sword & Sorcery genre. When I think of the stories, the cultist is magical, but not really cast spells every round magical. Actually, they tend to be competent at melee combat, sometimes surprisingly so, despite appearances.
Make the Cultist the Paladin class. Oath of the Cult. The oath bonds with an idol, enables the Blood Ritual for sacrificial healing magic, and uses necrotic damage instead of radiant for smite magic. That the Cultist should have high Charisma (intimidation and leadership) is central to the genre.
Tweak the Paladin class as seems fit. But it is a loathsome kind of Paladin zealot. Since it has fewer spells than the Cleric class, it helps reduce dependence on spells for healing, which helps keep the setting gritty, except for possible dependence on the Blood Ritual, which is also gritty.
For the courtier magician, I would instead use the Trickster Rogue for the concept. Maybe use its skills and tools to allow the player to craft potions and poisons, as long as the correct ‘ingredients’ are available.
I like the Courtier as a semimagical social class, sorta the way the Monk is semimagical. The Spymaster and Seducer work well as subclasses. Even these subclasses could be Rogue archetypes, but Charisma would be their key ability, so they can merit their own Courtier class. Make sure the class is powerful and on par mechanically to balance with other D&D classes. The lack of spells is significant, and the class needs compensation.
Thinking on it more.
For the gritty low magic setting, maybe the following.
Eliminate Wizard, Sorcerer, and Cleric completely.
Reserve the Druid exclusively for the prehuman races, maybe especially the giants. Giants associate with elements (frost, fire, cliffs, storms), and according to reallife ‘wastelands of the north’, many giants shapechange into an animal − normal animals as well as monstrous giant animals. If a DM gives a player permission to play a Druid, it means there has been contact with and training from a giant, and the DM and the player need to figure out how this happened.
The above effectively removes four full casters from the game. This already helps ensure a lower magic feel. Removal of the Cleric can help reduce dependence on healing magic.
Two full casters remain: Bard and Warlock. Each can be on opposite sides of the cultural spectrum.
The Bard with its more shamanic magic, takes on some of the ‘noble savage’ tropes among the Savage and Nomad cultures.
Oppositely, the Warlock with its more foul magic, takes on some of the ‘corrupt civilization’ tropes among the Decadent and Degenerate cultures.
In both cases, full spellcaster − powerful magic − mainly happens at the periphery of civilization.
The Cultist is super important for the Sword & Sorcery genre. When I think of the stories, the cultist is magical, but not really cast spells every round magical. Actually, they tend to be competent at melee combat, sometimes surprisingly so, despite appearances.
Make the Cultist the Paladin class. Oath of the Cult. The oath bonds with an idol, enables the Blood Ritual for sacrificial healing magic, and uses necrotic damage instead of radiant for smite magic. That the Cultist should have high Charisma (intimidation and leadership) is central to the genre.
Tweak the Paladin class as seems fit. But it is a loathsome kind of Paladin zealot. Since it has fewer spells than the Cleric class, it helps reduce dependence on spells for healing, which helps keep the setting gritty, except for possible dependence on the Blood Ritual, which is also gritty.
For the courtier magician, I would instead use the Trickster Rogue for the concept. Maybe use its skills and tools to allow the player to craft potions and poisons, as long as the correct ‘ingredients’ are available.
I like the Courtier as a semimagical social class, sorta the way the Monk is semimagical. The Spymaster and Seducer work well as subclasses. Even these subclasses could be Rogue archetypes, but Charisma would be their key ability, so they can merit their own Courtier class. Make sure the class is powerful and on par mechanically to balance with other D&D classes. The lack of spells is significant, and the class needs compensation.
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CapnZapp
Legend
I think we will have to realize any S&S game still based on D&D, and this game certainly only lightly skins 5E, cannot come close to the true tropes of S&S magic.
First off, sorcery is not just a tool you can rely on and use uncontroversially. It's a fearsome dark power you never use lightly. (If you use it willy-nilly you have invariably "gone too far", and you have become a despicable wicked monster).
So you always need swords for protection. You would never plan to just use magic.
This is in direct opposition to D&D, where spellcasters are made to be equal to fighters in combat (just using different tools, that are equally controversial - which is to say, often not controversial at all).
This is the first hurdle a true S&S conversion need to address.
Second: S&S magic is in direct opposition to might. That is, sorcery corrupts and degenerates the man. If you are a foul sorcerer, you are seldom if ever equal to a real man. (At this point, I'm not going to dance around the fact men are the default warriors of S&S. I will just note that female sorceresses have it easier since they're not losing anything precious to them)
And truly heroic might always beats magic. This is distinctly quite the opposite of most D&D.
---
What you want of a S&S system is warlocks sacrificing their mental and physical health for untold powers and wickedness.
You want spellcasters not relying on direct magical destruction for protection. They can hire sellswords, or they can conjure up physically powerful demons. Conan seldom has to face magical death rays. The odd fireball, yes, but that's something you can shrug off. I'm talking things he's defenseless against.
With one big exception: enchantment spells. Things that mess with your mind is your big weakness. Which becomes an even bigger problem when those cultists that use them are high-Charisma females...
---
Everything bleeds, and therefore you can kill it if you're justheroic strong enough. A spell like "Wall of Force" has no business existing in S&S unless you give it a "bend bars, lift gates" DC to smash.
There pretty much needs to be a Strength-based way to dispel any magic you can physically interact with, leaving illusions and enchantment tricks the spell category to really fear (as a muscle mountain of a hero).
---
In short, you want magic to work more like how desperate people turn to Nurgle-worship in Warhammer. From aplayer's minmaxer's viewpoint, it makes zero sense to allow your character to be inflicted with pustules and rotting diseases, just to be able to cast the odd disgusting spell.
In S&S no wholesomehero barbarian will ever want anything at all to do with magic.
And the point is: history gives them right. That is, the game system itself should ensure might beats magic.
From a PC charbuilding perspective, Magic should never be the minmaxed choice. Magic should not even be a regular alternative or be presented as equal to might. Magic should, at most, be presented as the "edgy" controversial choice you choose just to be different.
You turn to magic because you're bitter about not being strong enough, manly enough. Not because it offers a cool alternative way to build a ass-kicking character.
A real S&S game forces you to make real choices. It's like a game where you don't assign scores from an array but instead you roll up stats randomly. The higher you roll, the more of a hulking brute you want to create, since you can - you're the epitome of creation for a man.
If you roll low, the game system offers sorcery as a double-edged compensation. You need it to be able to compete, but you will always be tainted, compromised by trucking with dark forces (which magic invariably is).
---
A good start is to limit hero PCs to half caster magics. I don't care if your 6th level character is an Eldritch Knight or a Fighter 3/Wizard 3, just as long as you aren't a Sorcerer 6.
This is a very simple efficient and balanced way to ensure the above remains true: that no man can rely on magic alone.
Then make sure any NPC warlock doesn't have direct damage spells, and you come much closer to S&S magic. Summoning and enchantment spells are fair, and I see no reason why buffing or debuffing spells need to be prohibited (since those place the focus on the impending contest of might where it should be).
Damage spells that bring more atmosphere than outright overshadow melee are okay: burning hands or witch bolt or what have you. Visceral spells that require the caster to dare come close and get dirty.
The spells most removed from S&S are the "intellectual" spells - the spells that a psionicist could use. A telekinetic spell that simply lifts Conan into the air to hang defenseless, for instance. Or Forcecage. Such spells either don't exist at all, or just serve to make Hulk angry.
---
Saying this as a reaction the recent discussion about spellcasting classes. From my vantage point, that discussion fusses over minor variations in a still fundamentally D&D-centric game. What needs to be done, if you're serious about discussing how to emulate S&S, is to shuck out the very core of D&D, and replace it with a core true to S&S.
If you're not prepared to do that (and believe me, I do understand the appeal to simply use D&D for your S&S), I really don't care about the small details. Bard or Druid, who cares? Both classes are inherently D&D, so both will do well for a lightly-skinned S&Sian game of D&D.
Don't get me wrong, 5E already is a good candidate for S&S reskinning (certainly more than d20).
You just need to do a bit more than argue whether Druid or Bard fits best...
First off, sorcery is not just a tool you can rely on and use uncontroversially. It's a fearsome dark power you never use lightly. (If you use it willy-nilly you have invariably "gone too far", and you have become a despicable wicked monster).
So you always need swords for protection. You would never plan to just use magic.
This is in direct opposition to D&D, where spellcasters are made to be equal to fighters in combat (just using different tools, that are equally controversial - which is to say, often not controversial at all).
This is the first hurdle a true S&S conversion need to address.
Second: S&S magic is in direct opposition to might. That is, sorcery corrupts and degenerates the man. If you are a foul sorcerer, you are seldom if ever equal to a real man. (At this point, I'm not going to dance around the fact men are the default warriors of S&S. I will just note that female sorceresses have it easier since they're not losing anything precious to them)
And truly heroic might always beats magic. This is distinctly quite the opposite of most D&D.
---
What you want of a S&S system is warlocks sacrificing their mental and physical health for untold powers and wickedness.
You want spellcasters not relying on direct magical destruction for protection. They can hire sellswords, or they can conjure up physically powerful demons. Conan seldom has to face magical death rays. The odd fireball, yes, but that's something you can shrug off. I'm talking things he's defenseless against.
With one big exception: enchantment spells. Things that mess with your mind is your big weakness. Which becomes an even bigger problem when those cultists that use them are high-Charisma females...
---
Everything bleeds, and therefore you can kill it if you're just
There pretty much needs to be a Strength-based way to dispel any magic you can physically interact with, leaving illusions and enchantment tricks the spell category to really fear (as a muscle mountain of a hero).
---
In short, you want magic to work more like how desperate people turn to Nurgle-worship in Warhammer. From a
In S&S no wholesome
And the point is: history gives them right. That is, the game system itself should ensure might beats magic.
From a PC charbuilding perspective, Magic should never be the minmaxed choice. Magic should not even be a regular alternative or be presented as equal to might. Magic should, at most, be presented as the "edgy" controversial choice you choose just to be different.
You turn to magic because you're bitter about not being strong enough, manly enough. Not because it offers a cool alternative way to build a ass-kicking character.
A real S&S game forces you to make real choices. It's like a game where you don't assign scores from an array but instead you roll up stats randomly. The higher you roll, the more of a hulking brute you want to create, since you can - you're the epitome of creation for a man.
If you roll low, the game system offers sorcery as a double-edged compensation. You need it to be able to compete, but you will always be tainted, compromised by trucking with dark forces (which magic invariably is).
---
A good start is to limit hero PCs to half caster magics. I don't care if your 6th level character is an Eldritch Knight or a Fighter 3/Wizard 3, just as long as you aren't a Sorcerer 6.
This is a very simple efficient and balanced way to ensure the above remains true: that no man can rely on magic alone.
Then make sure any NPC warlock doesn't have direct damage spells, and you come much closer to S&S magic. Summoning and enchantment spells are fair, and I see no reason why buffing or debuffing spells need to be prohibited (since those place the focus on the impending contest of might where it should be).
Damage spells that bring more atmosphere than outright overshadow melee are okay: burning hands or witch bolt or what have you. Visceral spells that require the caster to dare come close and get dirty.
The spells most removed from S&S are the "intellectual" spells - the spells that a psionicist could use. A telekinetic spell that simply lifts Conan into the air to hang defenseless, for instance. Or Forcecage. Such spells either don't exist at all, or just serve to make Hulk angry.
---
Saying this as a reaction the recent discussion about spellcasting classes. From my vantage point, that discussion fusses over minor variations in a still fundamentally D&D-centric game. What needs to be done, if you're serious about discussing how to emulate S&S, is to shuck out the very core of D&D, and replace it with a core true to S&S.
If you're not prepared to do that (and believe me, I do understand the appeal to simply use D&D for your S&S), I really don't care about the small details. Bard or Druid, who cares? Both classes are inherently D&D, so both will do well for a lightly-skinned S&Sian game of D&D.
Don't get me wrong, 5E already is a good candidate for S&S reskinning (certainly more than d20).
You just need to do a bit more than argue whether Druid or Bard fits best...
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reelo
Hero
Crypts & Things (which is based on Swords & Wizardry, which in turn is based on D&D) does this VERY well though!
CapnZapp
Legend
Not familiar with C&T, but absolutely - of course you can bend D&D into a S&S shape.
You just have to be ready to sacrifice lots of convenient things you get used to in D&D.
In this case, discussing which is best, Druid or Bard, strikes me as odd - since the answer is clearly "neither". My point is not to call out anyone's game as badwrongfun. Just to say if you can accept one, why not simply accept the other too, since at this point, you're playing a lightly-skinned game of D&D more than a game that truly represents S&S magic...
ZeroSum
Canadian Barbarian
I'd recommend looking at the Heroic Fantasy Handbook for ACKS (Adventurer Conqueror King System). Eldritch, ceremonial magic that takes time to use and blackens the soul in the process, among other tweaks to the standard D&D experience.
Available in SRD form right here for the curious: atdyck/HFH_SRD
Available in SRD form right here for the curious: atdyck/HFH_SRD
GlassJaw
Hero
Great post Capn. I agree completely.
While I do believe 5E has the potential to handle S&S, it requires significant changes, and far beyond what Xoth does. I give credit for the attempt though since there is a lot I like (that's my biggest complaint about Thule - barely any mechanics at all).
My first order of business for S&S-ifying 5E is removing the casting system completely. Vancian magic doesn't make sense the for genre at all. Ritual casting is a good start but as Capn said, magic is S&S is always with a cost, either physical or sets the caster down a path of corruption/evil.
