Freedom of Movement underwater?

[mvincent]

I can understand why

Ok, thanks. I was hoping that was the case, but you seemed to indicate otherwise.

If there were a very-air-like-substance, would I just use the flying rules? Probably. If it were a little different, I might induce some modifiers, or whatever.

Would you take issue with a DM viewing FoM's unfettering of movement while in water as making it 'very-air-like' for the purposes of flight?

You cannot 'fly' in water, period

Well, you definitely can while on the Elemental plane of water (and you can't really get more watery than that imho). I don't see what might make that plane different than normal water, and I don't see anything actually contradicting this, i.e. the rules don't actually say "you can't use flying while in water".

I'm guessing that most of the initial authors are on this side. We already have clear statements from Skip Williams and the writer of the MotP. Similar, previous editions of AD&D allowed the fly spell to be used underwater. As I said: I have no personal preference here, I'm just trying to follow the Rules As Expected. Your personal preference does not influence my decision as much as those references do, and the rules quote (and reasoning) you provided didn't seem as strong to me as you possibly believe them to be.

I believe in the other thread (I'm not gonna reread it to verify) we talked about some real-life birds using their wings in the water

That was a weird side discussion (based on the MotP only). I got the feeling that the writer of the MotP was only thinking of non-winged flight when he wrote "Those with fly speeds can fly at half their normal rate, and their maneuverability is reduced one grade", but that is just speculation. I personally would be unlikely to allow winged flight in water at all (even on the Elemental plane of water) unless FoM was being used.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Why not?

Wouldn't it then say:

Condition                                Movement
Freedom of Movement                   quarter or half
Has a swim speed                           normal
Successful Swim check                 quarter or half
...

instead of

Condition                                Movement
Freedom of Movement                       normal
Has a swim speed                          normal
Successful Swim check                 quarter or half
...

Freedom of Movement and Has a Swim Speed are exactly the same, after all.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Would you take issue with a DM viewing FoM's unfettering of movement while in water as making it 'very-air-like' for the purposes of flight?

I and another guy swap DMing from time to time and, in his campaign, I play a rather high-level goody-two-shoes cleric (14th clr/sac.exor/contem.) and we are currently on a "water world" of sorts. Now, even though I'm the one who is most favored by such a ruling (and he has made that ruling, in agreement with you), I dislike it. I don't argue it in the game, of course, except initially (after the session), but I really don't like (a) the interpretation, (b) the 'feel', or (c) the playability.

a. As I've noted above.
b. It's just wrong IMO to allow flying underwater, period. It's not flying, it's swimming.
c. It leaves a gaping logical hole if you can fly in a very-air-like environment and yet, if you don't have flight, you still somehow possess the ability to make the environment seem very water-like. The only way this logical flaw is resolved is if you also rule that you plummet like a rock through the water should not possess flight capability. However, that would suck even more than the previous illogical result.

I'm guessing that most of the initial authors are on this side. We already have clear statements from Skip Williams and the writer of the MotP. Similar, previous editions of AD&D allowed the fly spell to be used underwater. As I said: I have no personal preference here, I'm just trying to follow the Rules As Expected. Your personal preference does not influence my decision as much as those references do, and the rules quote (and reasoning) you provided didn't seem as strong to me as you possibly believe them to be.

I can understand your position. With the MotP, my stance holds less water (pun intended). I suppose a personal preference can't sway you, but I find that once you do your best to follow the RAW you will eventually have to find some logical middle-ground. Not all questions can be resolved without any gray area and it's my opinion that personal preference is what will bring you out of the gray area until errata or another source is published.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Wouldn't it then say...

You're begging the question here. I could retort, "Wouldn't it say that you can fly underwater?" The fact it that it doesn't, and they didn't, and trying to ascertain the 'why' of the editor is frankly a lost cause. If they would allow me to edit the books (for free even) and publish it as 'official', believe me we wouldn't be having these discussions.

Freedom of Movement and Has a Swim Speed are exactly the same, after all.

Exactly my point. In both cases, you have the same speed. And yet, you are arguing that they will have different speeds. Let's break out some examples. Consider a hydra with unmodified land speed of 20ft and swim speed of 20ft.

This follows your interpretation (ER=expeditious retreat, see spoiler below for spell text).

		Land	Water
hydra		20	20
hydra w/FoM	20	20
hydra w/ER	50	20 or 50/4
hydra w/ER+FoM	50	20 or 50

This follows my interpretation.

		Land	Water
hydra		20	20
hydra w/FoM	20	20
hydra w/ER	50	20 or 50/4
hydra w/ER+FoM	50	20 or 50/4

Note the bold below and then explain how you get the fourth row in your interpretation.

[sblock]

Expeditious Retreat
Transmutation
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level (D)

This spell increases your base land speed by 30 feet. (This adjustment is treated as an enhancement bonus.) There is no effect on other modes of movement, such as burrow, climb, fly, or swim. As with any effect that increases your speed, this spell affects your jumping distance (see the Jump skill).

[/sblock]

 

[ThirdWizard]

Of course this is also your interpretation for halflings:

Condition                                Movement
Freedom of Movement                        5
Has a swim speed                           -
Successful Swim check                      5
...

Where "normal" and "quarter or half" mean the exact same thing! How can you reconcile that they use two different terms to relate the exact same speed? My interpretation makes more sense as it says that "normal" and "quarter or half" are not the same speed.

Imagine this exchange in game:

Player: What's my movement speed?
DM: One quarter.
Player: Hmmm... I cast freedom of movement. What's my speed now?
DM: Normal.
Player: Sweet! I move 20 feet that wa-
DM: Sorry, you can still only move 5 feet.
Player: Then why didn't you say one quarter?
DM: *shrug* It means the same thing.

Makes no sense to me, personally!

 

[Infiniti2000]

Makes no sense to me, personally!

Makes perfect sense to me. I see nothing in the FoM spell that increases speed by a factor of 4.

Btw, do you care to respond to the expeditious retreat example?

 

[prospero63]

Let me clarify a bit.

There's a little bit concerning freedom of movement hidden in a table and a footnote to said table on page 92 of the DMG.



While swimming, you move at 1/4 speed.

While walking along the bottom, you move at 1/2 speed.

With freedom of movement you can "move" at "normal" speed. Which of these movement modes (or maybe both) this is referring to is graciously left to the reader to infer. The FAQ seems to maybe say both, but then completely fails to mention anything about full movement speed, leaving me still unsure of what its stance really is, except that you can still move "normally" underwater!

This leaves me to wonder if the Sage didn't realize speeds were an issue at all and brings into question the whole thing for me. Because it reads to me like you swim and walk as per usual (1/4 speed and 1/2 speed) according to the FAQ when under the effect of freedom of movement.

I know I'm probably being cynical, and the question was asking something different, but that's kind of the crux of what the spell does, so to completely ignore it blows my mind.

Here's my understanding, and the way I have seen it adjudicated.

FoM does not grant an automatically successful swim check. However, if someone makes their swim check while under a FoM there is no movement penalty. So a human making their swim check would swim at 30 while under a FoM, not 1/4 speed.

If one fails their swim check they sink, FoM or not. Once on the bottom (and assuming they can breathe) FoM allows them to walk the bottom like normal. Again with the human, at a 30. They can jump, tumble, etc. with no problems.

If one is under the influence of a fly spell, they can "fly" underwater while under a FoM like normal. 60 or whatever it is in the rules now (don't feel like looking the movement rate up). Without it, they are restricted to flying at the swim speed (1/4), though I think that last one was mostly a house rule. HTH.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Makes perfect sense to me. I see nothing in the FoM spell that increases speed by a factor of 4.

It doesn't increase your movement by a factor of 4. It removes a penalty to movement. You really see no difference between "normal" and "quarter" movement speeds? By your reading, the table should look like this, should it not?

Condition                                Movement
Freedom of Movement                       normal
Has a swim speed                          normal
Successful Swim check                     normal
...

After all, normal movement in water is quarter, so putting quarter there means a quarter of a quarter! It's doubling up the penalty, right?

Btw, do you care to respond to the expeditious retreat example?

Specific rule overruling the general. Because of its wording, it has no bearing on how freedom of movement works. Besides, I think it best to determine how it works under normal circumstances then to figure out how it interacts with magical adjustments.

For example, expeditious retreat increases your land movement speed by +30, but states that it will not change your swim speed. Well, swim speed can be based off of your land speed, but even though this is true, your swim speed will not go up by so much as +5 even though 1/4 your modified movement might be higher than before the spell! It's a strange effect all by itself, and bringing freedom of movement into the mix with it can only bring more wonkiness.

 

[Infiniti2000]

It doesn't increase your movement by a factor of 4. It removes a penalty to movement. You really see no difference between "normal" and "quarter" movement speeds? By your reading, the table should look like this, should it not?

"Should" is very leading. I would say that it could look like that and be no different, but it shouldn't. Neither should it look like it does now.

After all, normal movement in water is quarter, so putting quarter there means a quarter of a quarter! It's doubling up the penalty, right?

No, definitely not. That would require it to say 1/4 normal, which it doesn't. Please point out to me where it says quarter normal and maybe you have a case, otherwise stop with the straw men.

Specific rule overruling the general. Because of its wording, it has no bearing on how freedom of movement works. Besides, I think it best to determine how it works under normal circumstances then to figure out how it interacts with magical adjustments.

Well, I think it has to do with your definition of normal.

For example, expeditious retreat increases your land movement speed by +30, but states that it will not change your swim speed. Well, swim speed can be based off of your land speed, but even though this is true, your swim speed will not go up by so much as +5 even though 1/4 your modified movement might be higher than before the spell! It's a strange effect all by itself, and bringing freedom of movement into the mix with it can only bring more wonkiness.

Bringing FoM into the mix is what brings in your ruling on 'normal'. What is normal if not full land speed? Remember, using normal to mean 'normal swim speed' is my definition, not yours. So, I want to know how you define normal to mean full land speed in select situations but not others. That really doesn't seem normal at all.

 

[ThirdWizard]

No, definitely not. That would require it to say 1/4 normal, which it doesn't. Please point out to me where it says quarter normal and maybe you have a case, otherwise stop with the straw men.

It's referencing "your speed." See below.

Bringing FoM into the mix is what brings in your ruling on 'normal'. What is normal if not full land speed? Remember, using normal to mean 'normal swim speed' is my definition, not yours. So, I want to know how you define normal to mean full land speed in select situations but not others. That really doesn't seem normal at all.

The table defines Swim speeds, not walking speeds, unless it uses Footnote 3. No Footnote 3 is in use in the freedom of movement row, so the movement is swimming movement. So, I'll try to explain my logic in a way that makes sense. Hopefully.

I start with the row "Successful Swim check." We know how Swim checks work, so this is a good baseline to start off with. The column Movement says "quarter or half." Half being for a full round action spent swimming. Okay, so we know 1) It is defining swim speeds and 2) the "quarter" is meant to be read as 1/4 "your speed" (as per Swim skill). So for a human, that would be one quarter of 30, for a halfing one quarter of 20.

So, I go to the freedom of movement row. I still hold those two things to be true. So 1) it's defining a swim speed and 2) it is in reference to "your speed" (again as per the Swim skill). What is "your speed?" For a human its 30, for a halfing its 20, etc.

Ergo, with freedom of movement, you can Swim at what is normally "your speed" where you would, without freedom of movement swim at one quarter "your speed." Thus, a human swims at 30, a halfing at 20, etc.