Friend AND Rules Lawyer -- Need Advice Please

[Aluvial]

I have DM'd a D&D game for the last 14 years. Over the course of this time I've had players come and go, but have always held a core group of at least 6 to 10 players. We have transitioned through all of the incarnations of the rules (2.0 to 3.0 was a bit rocky for us) and currently play a 3.5 game. Lately (the last two and half years), I've run 8 players in the Return to Temple of EE. The characters have reached 15th level (for the first time ever) and are threatening to level again.

The Rules Lawyer from the thread title is a very good friend of our game group members. We socialize outside of the game almost as often as we play, which is once a week for four hours. We range in age from 25 to 42 with the bulk of the group being in their mid 30's; my friend is 28 and has played with us for the last 4 or 5 years. With the start of the 3.0 rules and the new campaign my friend started and dropped an archer character because his character couldn't stack up against the other fighters. He then created a new, highly maxed out wizard.

My problem is with the amount of arguing that goes on between this person and the rest of the group; especially myself. My friend is always interrupting play by reciting the rules to the group, stretching the bounds of his new powerful spells to absolute maximum effect, and in general relishes in winning the game. What I mean by winning is that he is the type of person who argues about nearly every decision, every rule call I make in an effort to tweak out the absolutely best possible effect. He argues during other peoples turns, many times insisting that they make a "better" move based on his suggestion; I consider this to be Metagaming. He constantly is unhappy if I rule against him, especially when he cries about how "unbalanced" the game is. Essentially, he is a Rules Lawyer and strives to win an unwinnable game.

I don't (try) hold this against him personally; or do I? I find that I look forward to the game each week, prepare my adventures and so forth, but by the time game time rolls around, I start to dread it and my friend. It is becoming increasing annoying to play with him, and worse yet, I have another player who is thinking about dropping out claiming to be tired of the arguments in general, but not necessarily wanting to single out the Rules Lawyer (like I am) because it would cause a rift with him. This other player wants more role-play and isn't getting it because of the amount of time we spend on discussing the rules.

I'm not sure if there is a good solution to this problem, I really don't want to lose a friend, but at the same time, I don't see a way out of the problem without doing just that. I want him to continue to play, if and only if, he can change his particular style of play to better suit our entire group. He is plainly disruptive and has suggested quitting himself because of the problems he perceives with the game. At the time I asked him not to because he seemed to be taking it very personally. I asked him to improve and he did for a while. Three weeks later I started to notice it again. 6 sessions later and we are not seeing eye to eye on anything game related.

Does anyone have some advice for me? Is their a way to change a die-hard rules lawyer into a normal gamer, or do I have to just ask him to leave and risk the friendship? Is my game just getting too complicated with 8 players and 15th level characters? I'm not sure if the rules (although I like the new version because it didn't leave so much ambiguity as 2nd edition did) didn't get too specific. Everything seems so lethal at this high level of play and the rules just might be too specific for my style of DMing.

Has anyone faced having to lose a friend over this game because their friend was a Rules Lawyer? Are there other solutions that might work?


Aluvial

 

[Telperion]

Has anyone faced having to lose a friend over this game because their friend was a Rules Lawyer? Are there other solutions that might work?


Aluvial

Lost a friend? Sure did, and actually got kicked out of the entire social circle by leaving a gaming group. Well, not that it came as any kind of a surprise. Anyway, these sorts of things have always been very difficult. You kick someone out and they tend to resent you for it.

How about allowing this Rules Lawyer to DM for a while? Have you always been the DM of the group or does anyone else take seat in the DM chair every now and then? It could be that your friend just wants to run a game for a while and not sit on the side-lines while his character isn't actively participating (like when it isn't his turn to act) in the game. The kind of behavior that you described reminds me of myself when I was considerably unhappy with my previous DM. I always thought I could do better than him, and so I wrestled myself into the DM chair and took a crack at running the game for a while. After a while I was quite happy to return to return to my regular place in the group.

I don't know if this will help anything, but why not give it a try? Have your friend run a short-story and then return to the things your were doing earlier. A little side trip in a story isn't a bad thing anyhow...

 

[KenM]

Has he just started to be a rules lawyer? Or has that been going on for awhile? Also, has anyone else in group said anything to you about him?

 

[sir_ollibolli]

Suggestion: issue cards (three sounds like a good call) to him, that he can use to contest a decision (yours or a fellow gamer's...), because you were asked that the amount of time arguing should be limited in favor of role playing and not roll playing... (like the NFL)

That way he can still make an argument, but the amount of time that is lost because of it is limited...

 

[Whisper72]

Have you taleked to him about it at all??? I mean, if he is a friend outside the game as well, just talk to him on a non-gaming venue, and simply tell him literally you are sick and tired of all his rules-bickering. Maybe combine with the suggestion by Telperion, and ask him whether he'd rather DM. If he sais no, say you are the DM and that is final. Simply tell him he has to shut up and soldier, cuz he is ruining the fun for everyone else.

With his age, he should be mature enough to realize his behaviour is detrimental to the enjoyment of the rest. You do not need to tell him to leave, but if he is dead set on continuing, and you simply tell him to shut his trap because he is being annoying, he should get the hint and either stop being an , or he'll bow out of the game as he prolly won't enjoy it anymore.

If he is happy to take a shot at DM'ming, that is fine as well. Let him. He'll quickly come to realize how annoying his behaviour is...

 

[Belen]

Almost sounds like my current situation. My entire gaming group is fragmenting because of too many rules "discussions." I know exactly how you feel. I love the idea of gaming and I love the game, but when the actual day has arrived, then I wish that it would be over.

I have at least one person who will be leaving the group at the end of this campaign, which only has two sessions left. Then we're going on hiatus for a month of two and I will see where we are at that point.

It may be that you all need a break. I know that I definitely need to stop playing for a while and just have a life and a weekend again.

Once everything is done, then I will evaluate who I want to bring back to the gaming table and whether I just need to find some new faces.

I would recommend making yourself happy. The game is meant to be fun and if the DM is not having fun, then neither is anyone else. Try getting a neverwinter group together with your rule lawyer friend and just tell him that you're a friend, but that their are two many different personalities in the group to make it fun.

Or split the group into those who want combat munchiness and those who want a deeper game.

 

[diaglo]

this is an age old problem. message boards, bulletin boards, discussion lists, newsgroups, etc... have had this problem resurface continually.

talk to your friend.

tell him what is upsetting you. have the other player do the same thing, but not with you. have them talk outside of game on their own.

explain to him what you enjoy and what you are willing to do to make the game enjoyable for him and for the others.

if you can't work it out. agree to disagree. and ask him if he would be willing to leave the group.

 

[JesterPoet]

And remember, just because you're the GM doesn't mean that this is just your problem. If other players are bothered by this guy's actions, they have just as much responsibility as you to talk to him about it.

Don't let yourself be forced to be the "bad guy" because others won't speak up.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Perhaps you can point out that all the so-called "rules" in the 3.5 core books are just guidelines. IIRC, there is something about "rules" and DMing at the beginning of the DMG.

I have the same problem with rule discussions, but fortunately, the players agree quite quickly that a session is for playing a game, not for rewriting some tax declaration.

Remember, there is only one real rule in D&D:

Dungeon Master's word is law.

Period. Either the players accept that or they've to choose another group.

 

[Felix]

I have been guilty of Rules Lawyering in the past and still have to try to curb my tendancies to know and vocalize the "right" ruling during play. I think one of the things that keeps us out of rules discussions during play is that I have decided I won't bring up rules during play, but instead will present the DM with a list of mechanical issues that I thought should have been run differently.

For example, last game my character was trying to get the paladin out of a room for his own good. He didn't want to go. The DM ruled that we just made a series of STR checks to see who could move who. That's what we did. I did not bring up the fact that grappling has a built-in mechanic for dragging people against their will. I mentioned this to the DM after the game and the response was, "Oh, ok. We'll do that next time."

And really, that's the best way to mollify a rules-lawyer and satisfy the DM. The DM gets to stick by his spot-ruling, and the rules-lawyer gets to make his appeal. And you do this outside of game time so it doesn't bother anyone else. So ask him to write it down and talk to you about it. Let him know that it is disruptive otherwise, and that with time everyone's knowledge of the rules will improve.

As for his feneagling of the spells to their maximum effect, his spell list isn't infinite, and he probably only uses 10 spells on a regular basis, so hash out what those spells do. Let him know that rules questions about spell effects must be asked before or after -- and never during -- a game session.

It helped me, I hope it helps him. Luck.