Frogreaver's Warlord 2

[FrogReaver]

So I'm going to begin only going up through level 5. There's no point in trying to design level 6-20 features if the first part of the class doesn't click. Besides I forsee most of the level 6-20 abilities being improvements on the level 1-3 abilities. They will mostly give more uses, bigger dice etc.

Frogreaver's Warlord (attempt 2)

Level 1: Inspiring Strike: Once per short rest as a bonus action you may grant an ally 5 + warlord level temp hp. That ally can then immediately make an attack.

Level 2: (Subclass feature would go here)

Level 3: Warlord's Rally: Choose 3 Rallys from the list below. You may use this ability once per short rest choosing 1 of the Rallies you have chosen. Each Rally lasts 1 minute. Allies must be able to see or hear you to get any benefit.

Example Rallys (these may still need balanced a little but are listed to give an idea of what is possible with this mechanic)

Tacticians Plan: You may use this abilitiy for free when initiative is rolled. All allies gain a +3 bonus to initiative and an additional 15ft of movement on their first turn. You may also designtate 1 enemy as a focus target. Every attack on the first turn against that enemy deals an extra 2 damage.

Inspiring Assault: You may use this ability as a reaction whenever you attack an enemy. The attack you use this on does 1/2 your warlord level in extra damage. If this attack hits you may designate one ally as inspired and he gains advantage on all attacks his next turn. In addition, once per turn when you hit an enemy you may restore 5 hp to an ally of your choice that can see and hear you. This increases to 10 hp at 11th level.

Brave Leader: You may use this ability as a reaction when an ability is used that causes an ally to make a saving through. All saving throws against the effect are made at advantage and if the save is failed and the effect is ongoing those saves have advantage as well. In addition, all allies that save or eventually save against the effect get a +2 bonus to damage against the creature that caused the effect.

Try Again: When an ally misses an attack you may use this Rally as a reaction. That ally may make an additional attack immediately after the miss. He may do this once a turn while the Rally is in effect.

Level 4: ASI

Level 5: Extra Attack
Level 5: Improved Warlord's Rally: When you use the Attack Action and while your Warlord's Rally is in effect you may forgo the use of your extra attack to instead give an ally an additional attack on their next turn. This attack is in addition to any attacks that are granted by an allies Extra Attack feature.


Thoughts? Opinions? Is the overall design good and flexible enough even if some of the abilities effects are a little out of whack?

 

[FrogReaver]

Some comments on the design.

Level 1 was all about flavor. I wanted to give this class a small taste of 2 of his defining abilities. Attack granting and hp or temp hp granting. I went with temp hp here as I primarily wanted a subclass of warlord to focus on healing.

Level 2 seemed like the best place to fit subclass abilities. I think my level 3 ability is going to be the defining class feature and due to multiclassing it's probably to strong to fit at level 2 as I would be afraid of characters just dipping 2 levels to get at the Rally abilities.

a subclass that is a better attack granter, one dedicated to healing, one dedicated to tactics, one dedicated to bravaura. I've not designed any subclasses yet though.

Level 3 this is what I designed to be the warlords bread and butter. Different triggers, different effects. It gives the warlord a sense of flexibility that a support class without magic is generally lacking. The hope is that this mechanic will allow you to build interesting and different warlords all on it's own. Kind of like how wizards can be totally different based on the spells they choose.

Level 5 Warlords should be competent warriors so I gave them extra attack. However, this was also a good place to add in more attack granting

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It's an interesting start, but I feel like:

A) A lot of the abilities are kind of overcomplicated and somewhat small - like "And... and... and... in addition" and that's not really how 5E abilities work, not most. They tend to have bigger numbers but more straightforward functionality.

B) This doesn't remotely stack up to a Bard or Cleric of a similar level who is equally missing sub-class features. I mean, your Rallies are, for most part, worse than Bless, and you only get one per short rest, which doesn't seem great. Because it's only 1/SR, that means you're going to be thinking "I have to wait for the right moment!", and probably it won't get used.

And if the right moment does come, when things are absolutely clutch, you get that and nothing else, where a caster can potentially dump all the spells they have to try and sort things out.

C) Do they even... use a stat? I don't see any +INT/CHA/STR or anything. Is that intentional?

 

[mellored]

There's a bit of a disconnect between 1/rest, 1-minute durration, and using your reaction. Though the rallies themselves seem fine.
Perhaps just make it a stance you can change with your bonus action?

Also, there should probablt some things to use your action on.
I.e. as an action, you can point out a targets weak point, choose a target, your allies can more easily score a critical hit on the target, increasing the crit range by 1 for each point of intelligence you have. Thus a 16 Int would allow for crit on a 17-20.

And
When you use your action to help, the minimum roll on the d20 is equal to your proficiency + your Int modified. (Possibly scale by warlord level)

Or
When you use the help action on a skill or attack, the target can use your proficiency bonus in that skill oe with that weapon if it is higher. (I.e. wizard can hit things with a longbow).

 

[FrogReaver]

There's a bit of a disconnect between 1/rest, 1-minute durration, and using your reaction. Though the rallies themselves seem fine.
Perhaps just make it a stance you can change with your bonus action?

Also, there should probablt some things to use your action on.
I.e. as an action, you can point out a targets weak point, choose a target, your allies can more easily score a critical hit on the target, increasing the crit range by 1 for each point of intelligence you have. Thus a 16 Int would allow for crit on a 17-20.

And
When you use your action to help, the minimum roll on the d20 is equal to your proficiency + your Int modified. (Possibly scale by warlord level)

Or
When you use the help action on a skill or attack, the target can use your proficiency bonus in that skill oe with that weapon if it is higher. (I.e. wizard can hit things with a longbow).

1. You will eventually get more uses of the rally powers. probably around level 7 you will get to use them twice per short rest. Maybe at level 15 it would increase to 3 times per short rest or something. But that's talking higher level abilities. You can have 2 of these things at once, an ability with a lot of umph, a low level ability, and an ability you can use almost all the time. It won't work to have all 3.

2. You can use your action to attack. Enabling the all out lazylord style will require a subclass. Subclasses will also be where charisma and int and etc riders can be found.

3. Rally design would be severly restricted to abilities that give no up front advantages and handling triggers with them would be tricky if you tried to make it something that you can use a bonus action to change. If the change is free it's probably too strong as you really would be able to do all things at once.

 

[FrogReaver]

It's an interesting start, but I feel like:

A) A lot of the abilities are kind of overcomplicated and somewhat small - like "And... and... and... in addition" and that's not really how 5E abilities work, not most. They tend to have bigger numbers but more straightforward functionality.

The downside to not tying abilities into a package is that they become less thematic and you have to worry about unintended combinations of multiple smaller abilities stacking up together. Consider this, if you look at the barbarian rage ability it gives multiple things. Bonus damage, damage resistance, advantage on str ability checks and his subclass feature gives him additional damage or an additional attack or better damage resistance when raging. Encounter long buffs (outside spells) generally follow the AND path. The bladesinger is another example. His buff ability gives him 2-3 things at once.

I also think you are too worried about how 5e abilities work than whether this class I'm making actually would be a good warlord. I honestly don't care how 5e abilities typically work as so far how they typically work has failed to give us an adequate warlord. We have to think outside the box, go against the grain and do a few abnormal things to get this class working right.

B) This doesn't remotely stack up to a Bard or Cleric of a similar level who is equally missing sub-class features. I mean, your Rallies are, for most part, worse than Bless, and you only get one per short rest, which doesn't seem great. Because it's only 1/SR, that means you're going to be thinking "I have to wait for the right moment!", and probably it won't get used.

​

You will eventually get more uses of the Rallys. It's just going up to twice per short rest at level 3 is too much. If they were daily powers I would have more flexibility there but martial classes generally get short rest powers. Maybe this should be the exception but I have a feeling that if I had made Rally a long rest ability that you would find issue with it being long rest based.

Some rallys may be underpowered or overpowered. I admitted as much above. They will require some tweaking. Does that mean they cannot be fixed and tweaked to end up at the right balance point? The more important question is do they feel right? Do they feel like a warlord ability? Are they fun? Is the mechanic versatile enough to add in many different kinds of abilities?​

And if the right moment does come, when things are absolutely clutch, you get that and nothing else, where a caster can potentially dump all the spells they have to try and sort things out.

Now the complaint is that the Warlord isn't a full caster / doesn't function exactly like a full caster. I don't get it. Why is that a bad thing?

C) Do they even... use a stat? I don't see any +INT/CHA/STR or anything. Is that intentional?

No stat. Stat riders will be found in subclasses.

 

[FrogReaver]

Any thoughts on moving the subclass choice to level 1 and the level 1 ability to level 2?

 

[mellored]

1. You will eventually get more uses of the rally powers. probably around level 7 you will get to use them twice per short rest. Maybe at level 15 it would increase to 3 times per short rest or something. But that's talking higher level abilities. You can have 2 of these things at once, an ability with a lot of umph, a low level ability, and an ability you can use almost all the time. It won't work to have all 3.

2. You can use your action to attack. Enabling the all out lazylord style will require a subclass. Subclasses will also be where charisma and int and etc riders can be found.

3. Rally design would be severly restricted to abilities that give no up front advantages and handling triggers with them would be tricky if you tried to make it something that you can use a bonus action to change. If the change is free it's probably too strong as you really would be able to do all things at once.

1: I got that it scales. But the 1-minute buff feels like magic.

2: IMO, lazy lord should be an option for the base class. Also, there should be some out of combat features as well.
Something equivalent to guidance equivalent. Nominally, "if you take the help action, the target gains an extra 1d4 on their roll."

3: If it's too strong, you can reduce the bonus. Or break up the bonuses. Or both.

i.e.

Choose 3 Rallys from the list below. You may use this ability as a bonus action. You can only have 1 rally active at a time. Allies must be able to see or hear you to get any benefit.

Ready for anything: All allies gain a +3 bonus to initiative and an additional 15 5ft of movement on their first turn.

Focus Fire: You may also designate 1 enemy as a focus target. Every attack against that enemy deals an extra 2 1 damage.

Try Again: When an ally misses an attack you may use your reaction to allow that ally to make an additional attack with disavantage immediately after the miss.


Hmm... actaully, this is looking like a mix between the marshal's aura and the warlord's abilities.

BTW here's a list of the marshal aura's. You could have 1 minor (level 1) and 1 major (level 2) running at a time. As well as granting a move action a few times a day.
[sblock]
Minor

Accurate Strike: Bonus on rolls made to confirm critical hits.
Art of War: Bonus on disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts.
Demand Fortitude: Bonus on Fortitude saves.
Determined Caster: Bonus on rolls to overcome spell resistance.
Force of Will: Bonus on Will saves.
Master of Opportunity: Bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity.
Master of Tactics: Bonus on damage rolls when flanking.
Motivate Charisma: Bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks.
Motivate Constitution: Bonus on Constitution checks and Constitution-based skill checks.
Motivate Dexterity: Bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks.
Motivate Intelligence: Bonus on Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks.
Motivate Strength: Bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
Motivate Wisdom: Bonus on Wisdom checks and Wisdom-based skill checks.
Over the Top: Bonus on damage rolls when charging.
Watchful Eye: Bonus on Reflex saves.


Major:

Hardy Soldiers: The marshal's allies gain damage reduction
Motivate Ardor: Bonus on damage rolls.
Motivate Attack: Bonus on melee attack rolls.
Motivate Care: Bonus to Armor Class.
Motivate Urgency: Allies' base land speed is increased by a number of feet equal to 5 x the amount of bonus the aura provides.
Resilient Troops: Bonus on all saves.
Steady Hand: Bonus on ranged attack rolls.
[/sblock]

 

[mellored]

Any thoughts on moving the subclass choice to level 1 and the level 1 ability to level 2?

I generally support it.

Particularly if you give out skills, expertise, or armor.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I generally support it.

Particularly if you give out skills, expertise, or armor.

Yeah, I find myself doing this more and more with my homebrew stuff.

It's maybe a little bit against the 5E design ethos, but they do it with the cleric and warlock, so it can't be a cardinal sin.