Frogreaver's Warlord 2

[FrogReaver]

1: I got that it scales. But the 1-minute buff feels like magic.

All abilities generally sound magical unless their motivations are explained. So let me do that before you totally write it off as sounding too magical. The goal for my warlord was to tie words and action and demeanor all together so that it would be a bit ambiguous what part was inspiring and helping your allies. In other words I wanted to give more agency for other players to decide how the warlord was specifically helping them. Further, the buffs the warlord grants by his demeanor/words/deeds/etc should be temporary things as its his demeanor/words/deeds that are causing them. I believe a warlord doesn't have to inspire allies a little at the time through a small word here or a small deed there but does something that's just really inspiring or brilliant or helpful once a combat that gets you focused and fighting better than otherwise.

The above is why I chose to key warlord buffs off things that are happening and not just off him spouting out a few words of encouragement to do things. It's also why I chose the 1 minute time limit instead of a turn based one. It let's whatever he did or said or whatever have a lasting effect. "He doesn't have to be totally inspiring the whole fight to inspire you the whole fight."

2: IMO, lazy lord should be an option for the base class. Also, there should be some out of combat features as well.

Maybe. I think the only way to design a traditional warlord and a lazy lord in the same class while keeping the class balanced is to have some kind of tradeoffs for lazylord style abilities with abilities that are good for a regular warlord. Subclass selection is a natural tradeoff scenario and so I think subclass works great for this. If it was that important that it not be a subclass that enables this then there would need to be a significant rework of the attack granting parts of this class. There's just no place I can find for that kind of a tradeoff to be made in any other area of the class. Maybe you can help there?

Something equivalent to guidance equivalent. Nominally, "if you take the help action, the target gains an extra 1d4 on their roll."

Sure I love out of combat abilities. The warlord needs so much early on in order to feel like a warlord that I don't think such an ability can be worked into the first 5 levels. Maybe level 6,7, 9 or 10?

3: If it's too strong, you can reduce the bonus. Or break up the bonuses. Or both.

And then you end up with a jack of all trades, master of none and those concepts generally feel weak in 5e.

i.e.

Choose 3 Rallys from the list below. You may use this ability as a bonus action. You can only have 1 rally active at a time. Allies must be able to see or hear you to get any benefit.

Ready for anything: All allies gain a +3 bonus to initiative and an additional 15 5ft of movement on their first turn.

Focus Fire: You may also designate 1 enemy as a focus target. Every attack against that enemy deals an extra 2 1 damage.

Try Again: When an ally misses an attack you may use your reaction to allow that ally to make an additional attack with disavantage immediately after the miss.

I don't think you made anything strong enough to actually matter. More importantly these abilities don't live up to the concept of a class that inspires others to fight better through word and deed and demeanor. They are all "word" abilities and that just doesn't have the same feel.

Hmm... actaully, this is looking like a mix between the marshal's aura and the warlord's abilities.

BTW here's a list of the marshal aura's. You could have 1 minor (level 1) and 1 major (level 2) running at a time. As well as granting a move action a few times a day.
[sblock]
Minor

Accurate Strike: Bonus on rolls made to confirm critical hits.
Art of War: Bonus on disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts.
Demand Fortitude: Bonus on Fortitude saves.
Determined Caster: Bonus on rolls to overcome spell resistance.
Force of Will: Bonus on Will saves.
Master of Opportunity: Bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity.
Master of Tactics: Bonus on damage rolls when flanking.
Motivate Charisma: Bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks.
Motivate Constitution: Bonus on Constitution checks and Constitution-based skill checks.
Motivate Dexterity: Bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks.
Motivate Intelligence: Bonus on Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks.
Motivate Strength: Bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
Motivate Wisdom: Bonus on Wisdom checks and Wisdom-based skill checks.
Over the Top: Bonus on damage rolls when charging.
Watchful Eye: Bonus on Reflex saves.


Major:

Hardy Soldiers: The marshal's allies gain damage reduction
Motivate Ardor: Bonus on damage rolls.
Motivate Attack: Bonus on melee attack rolls.
Motivate Care: Bonus to Armor Class.
Motivate Urgency: Allies' base land speed is increased by a number of feet equal to 5 x the amount of bonus the aura provides.
Resilient Troops: Bonus on all saves.
Steady Hand: Bonus on ranged attack rolls.
[/sblock]

Honestly I think those kind of Marshall abilities you just mentioned would go great on a warlord subclass.

 

[mellored]

Maybe. I think the only way to design a traditional warlord and a lazy lord in the same class while keeping the class balanced is to have some kind of tradeoffs for lazylord style abilities with abilities that are good for a regular warlord. Subclass selection is a natural tradeoff scenario and so I think subclass works great for this. If it was that important that it not be a subclass that enables this then there would need to be a significant rework of the attack granting parts of this class. There's just no place I can find for that kind of a tradeoff to be made in any other area of the class. Maybe you can help there?

All you need is a slightly-worse-than-attacking action at level 1.

Personally, I'd go for a buffing help action.

Maybe... You can use the help action at 60'. If you help with an attack, and it hits, the attack is a critical. I'd double check the math on that, but +1d8 crit die is less than 1d8+str attack. Though rogue can have nasty crits...
Or Maybe maximized the damage?
or roll 3d20 like elven accuracy. Which would works both in and out of combat.
or +1d4? Like a combo bless/guidance?

Something like that.

And then you end up with a jack of all trades, master of none and those concepts generally feel weak in 5e.

Depends on how you let them stack.
4e warlord knows, stacking +to-hit, +damage, and +attacks can easily let them be a masters of destruction.

Or don't let anything stack and you can be too weak, like the marshal.

Honestly I think those kind of Marshall abilities you just mentioned would go great on a warlord subclass.

Those are direct from 3.5.
If you want to look at the rest for insperation (just don't look at it for balance). http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b

 

[FrogReaver]

All you need is a slightly-worse-than-attacking action at level 1.

For a basic concept, if your attack is stronger than the action you would grant why grant the action instead of just attacking? Likewise if you make the buff better than an attack why would you ever attack? I guess as long as the two options are close enough in damage output then people may choose theme over a slight increase in damage. I don't think that's a good way to build a class or a concept. It's really just flavoring disguised as an ability. I instead would have better damage compete with healing and compete with better tactical positioning and initiative, etc. That makes for a more interesting decision point IMO.

Personally, I'd go for a buffing help action.

Maybe... You can use the help action at 60'. If you help with an attack, and it hits, the attack is a critical. I'd double check the math on that, but +1d8 crit die is less than 1d8+str attack. Though rogue can have nasty crits...
Or Maybe maximized the damage?
or roll 3d20 like elven accuracy. Which would works both in and out of combat.
or +1d4? Like a combo bless/guidance?

Something like that.

All those sound like abilities solely for the lazy lord. What if I want my hit things and buff and grant attacks style warlord?

Depends on how you let them stack.
4e warlord knows, stacking +to-hit, +damage, and +attacks can easily let them be a masters of destruction.

Well I thought your previous posts ruled out stacking those abilities. Did you intend for them to be stacked?

Or don't let anything stack and you can be too weak, like the marshal.

Those are direct from 3.5.
If you want to look at the rest for insperation (just don't look at it for balance). http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b

I don't think stacking a bunch of small options that are picked by the player ever ends up well. It's either way to strong, to easy to forgot, to weak or something is wrong with it. I think packages work better and are more thematic (possibly with some inherent scaling). I think there needs to be a resource expenditure as being able to change "abilities" on the fly without some kind of limitation can be problematic as well. If it's at will it must be a lot weaker than if there is some kind of daily or short rest resource backing up the ability.

 

[mellored]

All those sound like abilities solely for the lazy lord. What if I want my hit things and buff and grant attacks style warlord?

Then hit things, use your buffs, and grant attacks.
I wasn't suggesting you remove anything. Just add the option. (also, some out of combat function).

You can still have the 20 Str, polearm master, GWM, support guy. Who smacks things and never helps.
Or you could have the 20 Cha, inspiring leader, healer feat, support guy. Who uses the help action and never attacks.
Or somewhere in between. A 18Str/18Cha and going back and forth between smacking and helping, depending on the situation.

I don't think stacking a bunch of small options that are picked by the player ever ends up well. It's either way to strong, to easy to forgot, to weak or something is wrong with it. I think packages work better and are more thematic (possibly with some inherent scaling). I think there needs to be a resource expenditure as being able to change "abilities" on the fly without some kind of limitation can be problematic as well. If it's at will it must be a lot weaker than if there is some kind of daily or short rest resource backing up the ability.

Stacking, or scaling. Either way. It is easier to balance big things than many smaller ones.

But I still don't like the 1/rest buff when we have plenty of other classes that do 1/rest buff. It's a missed opportunity to do something new.

Maybe compromise? Start with 1/rest. Then scale to at-will.

 

[cbwjm]

For level 1, I know this is about empowering your allies, but I feel like the warlord should gain something else here, something that is just for the warlord. Using the bard as an example, they gain inspiration dice but also gain spellcasting. I'd do the same here for the warlord.

 

[FrogReaver]

Then hit things, use your buffs, and grant attacks.
I wasn't suggesting you remove anything. Just add the option. (also, some out of combat function).

You can still have the 20 Str, polearm master, GWM, support guy. Who smacks things and never helps.
Or you could have the 20 Cha, inspiring leader, healer feat, support guy. Who uses the help action and never attacks.
Or somewhere in between. A 18Str/18Cha and going back and forth between smacking and helping, depending on the situation.

I see. I have no problem fitting that in. I just don't know where I would fit it in. We have healing and attack granting and buff type abilities that all need added in. Unless we start really overloading levels with many different features I don't know what should be given up for that ability?

Stacking, or scaling. Either way. It is easier to balance big things than many smaller ones.

But I still don't like the 1/rest buff when we have plenty of other classes that do 1/rest buff. It's a missed opportunity to do something new.

Maybe compromise? Start with 1/rest. Then scale to at-will.

I agree. I dislike starting with 1 / short rest. Would it be better as a daily ability. There is some precedent with such things, like rage and the samauri ability?

What if we just gave the Warlord one use of his ability per initative roll? He can save up to a max of his highest int, wis or cha mod uses?

 

[FrogReaver]

For level 1, I know this is about empowering your allies, but I feel like the warlord should gain something else here, something that is just for the warlord. Using the bard as an example, they gain inspiration dice but also gain spellcasting. I'd do the same here for the warlord.

What kinds of things did you have in mind?

 

[mellored]

I see. I have no problem fitting that in. I just don't know where I would fit it in. We have healing and attack granting and buff type abilities that all need added in. Unless we start really overloading levels with many different features I don't know what should be given up for that ability?

You can just add it at level 1. Maybe upgrade it at higher level since help only works on 1 attack.
But it's not a power increase. So no need to trade anything out.

It's like a fighter being able to choose between 2-handed, sword and board, bows, and TWF. It's not overpowered if he has proficiency in all weapons, because he can only use one at a time.

I agree. I dislike starting with 1 / short rest. Would it be better as a daily ability. There is some precedent with such things, like rage and the samauri ability?

1/day seems even more like a spell to me.
But, yes, there's precidence. And it's not like there's anything inherently wrong or unbalanced with the model, it's just spell-y in my opinion.
But yours opinion is just as valid.

 

[cbwjm]

What kinds of things did you have in mind?

As it is a martial class, I'd suggest something like a fighting style. It doesn't have to be the full list but something else that provides a benefit to the warlord themselves so that they aren't overly specialised would be good at 1st level.

 

[Mistwell]

Level 1: Inspiring Strike: Once per short rest as a bonus action you may grant an ally 5 + warlord level temp hp. That ally can then immediately make an attack.

This should be tied to a stat. Nor should there be a fixed "5" there. So easy solution, Stat Bonus + Warlord Level in Temporary Hit Points, and make an attack using their reaction.

Tacticians Plan: You may use this abilitiy for free when initiative is rolled. All allies gain a +3 bonus to initiative and an additional 15ft of movement on their first turn. You may also designtate 1 enemy as a focus target. Every attack on the first turn against that enemy deals an extra 2 damage.

This is a bit messy. You've again failed to tie the abilities to a stat, which doesn't fit the 5e design philosophy. Nor does the "+3" make any sense. So easy solution, your Stat Bonus as a bonus to target's initiative.

Next part "15 move" that's pretty arbitrary as well. So an encumbered halfling can move as fast as an unencumbered elf? It should be tied to either your stat, or their movement. "Half their movement speed" could work.

Last part "+2 damage to one target" is again pretty arbitrary. Should be equal to your secondary stat bonus, similar to how a Cleric can use their Charisma for a few things. And the targeting is too complex...should just be "on their next attack".

I am also not sure if these three things are really related to each other. Seems a mish-mash of abilities.

Inspiring Assault: You may use this ability as a reaction whenever you attack an enemy. The attack you use this on does 1/2 your warlord level in extra damage. If this attack hits you may designate one ally as inspired and he gains advantage on all attacks his next turn. In addition, once per turn when you hit an enemy you may restore 5 hp to an ally of your choice that can see and hear you. This increases to 10 hp at 11th level.

This is again an unrelated series of abilities. How about, "You can add your [Stat] in extra damage, and if your attack hits one ally gains advantage on their attacks and gains [your stat] in hit points."

Brave Leader: You may use this ability as a reaction when an ability is used that causes an ally to make a saving through. All saving throws against the effect are made at advantage and if the save is failed and the effect is ongoing those saves have advantage as well. In addition, all allies that save or eventually save against the effect get a +2 bonus to damage against the creature that caused the effect

Just make this "Ally gains a bonus on all saves equal to your [Stat bonus] for one minute". Cut the damage bonus and other stuff.