From Prone to Standing - flat footed or no?

[hazardjsimpson]

So guys, I have a question I haven't found the answer for in the book sufficiently. If a target is knocked prone and then uses a move action to stand up, would they be considered flat-footed at any point? I have a rogue who is using a whip to trip opponents and prone them in prep for a sneak attack, but i'd like to know if they still count as FF directly after they stand (but haven't yet acted other than the getting up action)

Thoughts?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

So guys, I have a question I haven't found the answer for in the book sufficiently. If a target is knocked prone and then uses a move action to stand up, would they be considered flat-footed at any point? I have a rogue who is using a whip to trip opponents and prone them in prep for a sneak attack, but i'd like to know if they still count as FF directly after they stand (but haven't yet acted other than the getting up action)

Thoughts?

I don't understand what makes you think that a prone character is flat-footed (more precisely, denied his Dexterity bonus to AC). Is this a Pathfinder change that I missed?

Attacking a prone creature gives the attacker +4 to the attack roll. That's all it does ... again, unless I've missed a rules change in Pathfinder. So no, there's no sneak attack on anyone just because he's prone or standing up.

 

[Starbuck_II]

So guys, I have a question I haven't found the answer for in the book sufficiently. If a target is knocked prone and then uses a move action to stand up, would they be considered flat-footed at any point? I have a rogue who is using a whip to trip opponents and prone them in prep for a sneak attack, but i'd like to know if they still count as FF directly after they stand (but haven't yet acted other than the getting up action)

Thoughts?

Using any action is using an action. You can't be flat footed if you use an action to stand (since flat footed means not acted yet). That is an inherent contradiction.

Could clarify what you mean?
Sounds like the guy is acting and therefore not flatfoot.

 

[hazardjsimpson]

I don't understand what makes you think that a prone character is flat-footed (more precisely, denied his Dexterity bonus to AC). Is this a Pathfinder change that I missed?

No, it's more of a question on flavor and tactics I think - it's not so much prone, but the fact that someone is knocked prone due to a trip attack. I think there's a difference between being on your back and being KNOCKED on your back, but that's hard to quantify. I think I was meaning more 'loss to Dex AC' than Flat Footed. My rather hasty post didn't do my any justice in getting my point across, sadly.

Attacking a prone creature gives the attacker +4 to the attack roll. That's all it does ... again, unless I've missed a rules change in Pathfinder. So no, there's no sneak attack on anyone just because he's prone or standing up.

Actually, PF states that the condition of being prone gives you a -4 to your AC against melee and +4 AC against ranged attacks. The only attack roll modifier that Prone gives is a -4 to the prone character on their attacks - attackers gain no bonuses. So where does that AC penalty come from? There are only certain things that add to AC -- Armor, dexterity, natural armor, deflection. When you're prone, you don't or wouldn't lose Armor, Natural, or any magic bonuses, so Dex seems the likely choice.

I really want to be able to Sneak Attack a tripped, prone foe! Is that too much to ask?

 

[hazardjsimpson]

Using any action is using an action. You can't be flat footed if you use an action to stand (since flat footed means not acted yet). That is an inherent contradiction.

Could clarify what you mean?
Sounds like the guy is acting and therefore not flatfoot.

I agree, I actually posted rather hastily and wasn't clear. The move action to stand would take off the flat-footed effect. I'm mostly concerned I guess about the prone condition and the AC effects. I realize the RAW has a specific effect and doesn't clarify where the penalty to AC comes in when prone, but if I've used Trip to knock an opponent down and then 5 foot step and stab them before they get a turn or can stand to react, how can they NOT be losing Dex to AC? I just knocked said foe right on their ass, seems a sneak attack would be a fair attack at that point?

Two Weapon Combo rogue whip / short sword looking for some build love,

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Actually, PF states that the condition of being prone gives you a -4 to your AC against melee

Okay, but this is functionally identical to getting a +4 to attack rolls, isn't it?

So where does that AC penalty come from?

It comes from being prone. You're simply easier to hit. It's not Dex penalty, an armor penalty, or any other kind of named penalty. It's just a way of saying you're easier to hit.

I really want to be able to Sneak Attack a tripped, prone foe! Is that too much to ask?

That's fine, but you're in house rules territory. The RAW (rules as written) aren't going to be any help.

For what it's worth, IMO the rogue in Pathfinder already got powered up too much ... giving the class more sneak attack is just over the top.

 

[ruemere]

So guys, I have a question I haven't found the answer for in the book sufficiently. If a target is knocked prone and then uses a move action to stand up, would they be considered flat-footed at any point? I have a rogue who is using a whip to trip opponents and prone them in prep for a sneak attack, but i'd like to know if they still count as FF directly after they stand (but haven't yet acted other than the getting up action)

Thoughts?

Prone != Helpless (Glossary: Glossary)
Prone does not allow to make Sneak attacks by itself, however:
- prone characters can still be flanked
- Improved Feint or Greater Feint work wonders
- Hide in Plain Sight + Stealth + Sniping

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[hazardjsimpson]

thanks!

Thanks for the input guys, that helped clarify a lot. A buddy of mine pointed out too that Sneak Attack might actually be *harder* on a prone foe, as depending on how they are 'prone' (on back , face, etc) would possibly greatly limit the number of weak points you could exploit.

Also, I had *totally* spaced the Feint, I think mainly because I'm looking to maximize the use of the whip as part of a Two Weapon setup, but Feint is a great tool to have in the rogue box.

Thanks again!

 

[Drachesturm]

As I read the RAW it provokes an AoO but they are not flatfooted because they have acted.