Frostburn in PDF @ drivethrurpg!

sckeener

First Post
Since I'm neither the publisher nor the distributor, I didn't know where I should post this....

But I am so frelling happy that a WotC product is available via http://www.drivethrurpg.com that I'm going nuts just thinking about it! I had to post somewhere!

I buy a ton of PDFs and admittedly I'm annoyed when it is just a scanned in version. However, Frostburn is an electronic document!

Hopefully the rest of the 3.5 line is soon to follow. I'm drooling over the idea of cut and paste and text searches.
 

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I just wish they'd have used a better store, like RPGNow. DRMed PDFs = me not buying.

Also, the price is the same as the physical book. I'm not seeing Frostburn becoming a huge sales success in crippled PDF format with those limitations.
 

sckeener-

Hey, there! I am glad that you posted about this, because I am curious of the opinion of a true pdf fan: do you think that pricing the electronic document the same as the MSRP for the hardback volume is reasonable? Will you buy it at that price?

I ask, because it makes absolutely no sense to me that a product with zero printing and minimal distribution costs would be priced the same as one with both of those embedded costs. This is not even including discounting, which is common in the industry. Perhaps I am just missing a fundamental advantage to the electronic version since I have not used pdfs extensively?
 

I would have strongly considered this an alternative to buying the print edition... except for the price. They're crazy to put it on at that level.
 


PDF vs Hardcopy

rowport said:
sckeener-

Hey, there! I am glad that you posted about this, because I am curious of the opinion of a true pdf fan: do you think that pricing the electronic document the same as the MSRP for the hardback volume is reasonable? Will you buy it at that price?

I ask, because it makes absolutely no sense to me that a product with zero printing and minimal distribution costs would be priced the same as one with both of those embedded costs. This is not even including discounting, which is common in the industry. Perhaps I am just missing a fundamental advantage to the electronic version since I have not used pdfs extensively?

First, I would love the price to be lower, but I would also love for the price of the hardcover to be lower.

The reason I am willing to pay the same price is because they have different advantages.

The main advantage of PDFs is copy&paste and searching. Why reinvent the wheel when I can cut & paste? Why spend minutes searching for some rule in a hardcopy when it is a click away?

With PDFs, I can have several books open to pages I need without taking up the space at the game table. I can have adventure maps or monsters open in front of me and my players have no clue (my screen is turned away from them.)

I have the entire second story of my house for gaming, but it is easier as a player and as a DM having all the books at my finger tips. Frequently I find the 'needed' info faster than the rest of the gaming group. They are limited to what they can bring in their bags and cars. They are limited to what books are at the house where we are gaming. With PDFs, you are limited only by computer storage space (Hard Drive, CDs, USB drives, external drives, etc) and computer. Obviously a laptop is a nice plus. Though many PDAs can now display PDFs.

For those that think the DRM is a limiting factor...I have my pdfs on 2 pcs that I use, one is my work laptop (shhh!) and the other is at home. You can have the PDFs on multiple machines. I believe the limit is 10 computers (usually,) but the pdf is tied to an account. I can print the document. I can copy and paste. And for Frostburn, I can comment the PDF (most at drivethrurpg PDFs can't be commented.)

If you have a laptop or a desktop near the gaming group, I highly recommend getting PDFs of your gaming books. Currently I am runing an Old empires game for FR. The party is currently in Unther. Ancient Kingdoms: Mesopotamia PDF from drivethrurpg is wonderful. I have been cutting and pasting from that book and it is helping my home game with a Summerian feel!

Ok...wife is calling. got to go. Those are my major pluses. I could do a lot of those things with hardcopies (I in fact have hardcopies of all my pdfs,) but it takes too much of my time to enter all the information I want for my game. Almost everyone I know has house rules for their game. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to take the text of the rule books modify it for your game without having to type in every word? How many hardcopy books have good indexes? Wouldn't it be nice to be able to do word searches?
 

Speaking from my POV as an avid PDF consumer (though since I am also a PDF publisher, you may wish to take it with a grain of salt; I am trying as best I can not to bring publisher bias into the equation, but in the interest of full disclosure, I should tell you I write PDFs too - though I should also tell you that my policies as a PDF publisher are essentially governed by, "if I were buying this product, what would I want?").

rowport said:
Hey, there! I am glad that you posted about this, because I am curious of the opinion of a true pdf fan: do you think that pricing the electronic document the same as the MSRP for the hardback volume is reasonable?
In two words, "{expletive edited for Eric's Grandma}, NO!"

Traditional (non-DRMed) PDFs have the following advantages over print products (in no particular order):
1 - They don't take up shelf space - when you have a collection of over 500 PDFs, as I do (at least, I'm pretty sure it's approaching 500) you appreciate not having to find room for 500 books.

2 - "Take only the parts you want" - As an extension of the above, you need only print small sections of the PDF that are relevant to you instead of lugging the whole thing around to your games. Alternatively, a DM can print only those portions of a PDF he wants his players to see.

3 - Cut and Paste - Again, related to "take the parts you want" but very nice for quickly pulling material from a dozen sources to create a customized "sourcebook" for your PC.

4 - Searchability - The "search" feature of a PDF lets you almost instantly find that nasty little rule to stump (or be) a rules-lawyer.

5 - Backups - PDFs are easier - and much cheaper - to "back up" in case of catastrophe than traditional print items. In some cases (such as RPGNow.com), you have the ability to send yourself re-download links of products you've already paid for in case of true catastrophe (e.g., the house burns down - at RPGNow.com, you can simply use a few clicks to regenerate your PDF collection for free).

6 - Cost - In theory, part of paying for a print product includes the cost of printing, binding, warehousing, and distributing - including the cost of materials (paper, ink, & glue); a PDF needs not include these costs (IIRC, a good rule of thumb is that publishers get around 25% of the MSRP for each book and that's BEFORE they have to account for printing costs). Of course, Economics 101 tells you that the price of a good has NOTHING to do with the cost of production and everything to do with how much people are willing to pay (soft drinks, for example, have HUGE profit margins for this very reason).

7 - Instant, Free Updates - Some PDF vendors update their products for free... again, because the cost of distribution, et al, is negligible... don't you wish you had gotten a free 3.5 PHB if you had bought the 3.0 PHB, for example?

It should be noted that DRMed PDFs often (not always) take away some of these advantages. In particular:

3 - Cut & Paste - Most Drivethrurpg PDFs limit your cut & paste ability to 10 cut/pastes in a 10-day period. This doesn't do away with the utility entirely, but does mitigate it considerably, as most people (a) don't want to be bothered rationing their cutting/pasting and (b) in my experience, want to cut lots of small sections rather than a few large ones.

5 - Backups - As has been discussed before, some of Adobe's limits (6 computers) can come into play; also, a computer without an internet connection (e.g., a laptop) can't be used at all to display things... not to mention the trouble with remembering what login info you used to activate your version of Acrobat 6 three years down the road when you get a new machine.

6 - Cost - To be kind, let's just say that the vendors who use RPGNow.com very rarely choose to pass on production cost savings they see due to smaller cuts being taken by electronic distribution channels or lack of need to spend money on printing on to the consumer. Clearly, they've studied economics 101.

Will you buy it at that price?
No. PDFs take the same "Intellectual Property" that print products offer and packages it with an entirely different set of "Added Value" options than a print product.

Some of the "Added Value" isn't obvious at first blush. As discussed above, the PDF obviously adds "portability" and "searchability" while the print product adds the value of the physical materials used to create it. But some things are more subtle; for instance, you have the "Right of First Sale" with a print product - don't like what you bought and you can slap it up on eBay and at least get some money back. There are technical ways of getting a PDF into a copy with which you can exercise the Right of First Sale (make the initial download to a CD-RW or to a Zip Disk, for instance) but with DRMed PDFs, you cannot exercise this right fully (unless, of course, you want to give out your Adobe DRM registration information along with the disk).

At the end of the day, however, I as a consumer see a very valuable commodity that I am providing the publisher when I purchase a PDF... the elimination of some of the publisher's risk. When a publisher chooses to do a print run of 1,000 books, he is gambling with his own money that the money he spends on the print run will be made up by sales. PDF products do not require him to take that gamble. At the very least, I expect a discount equal to the cost of printing to offset the fact that I have chosen a method that eliminates that risk for him.

Weighing the different "added value" aspect that PDFs versus print products bring to the "IP" contained therein, I happen to believe that the Right of First Sale outweighs some of the convenience considerations of portability and searchability, because RoFS is, literally, money in my pocket. When I pay for a PDF and, in essence, give up the RoFS, I expect another discount for assuming even more risk - the risk of buying something useless sight unseen and being unable to shift some of that cost to someone else through re-selling the item.

IMO, the combination of eliminating direct financial risk for the publisher and assuming direct financial risk myself when purchasing a PDF should equate to AT LEAST 50% off the "print price." The added ability of searching and portability does add some value; however, that's not direct financial value, and I'm willing to value it at about 10% of the "print price." Bottom line: any PDF priced more than 60% above print price is, quite simply, too expensive. YMMV based on how you value these different commodities added to and subtracted from the "IP content" of the work itself.

Not to mention that on principle, I refuse to pay for ANYTHING with DRM embedded in it, as DRM serves to take my property (in the form of my computer) and turn it against me to enforce someone else's (arbitrary) view of what is considered Fair Use. MY computer, paid for with MY money, will be used in my home to view files that I OWN because I bought them with MY money in a manner of MY choosing, not someone else's.

I ask, because it makes absolutely no sense to me that a product with zero printing and minimal distribution costs would be priced the same as one with both of those embedded costs. This is not even including discounting, which is common in the industry. Perhaps I am just missing a fundamental advantage to the electronic version since I have not used pdfs extensively?
Nope. You're just being introduced to economics 101 where cost to produce has nothing to do with price. It sounds counterintuitive, but it's an unfortunate reality.

--The Sigil
 
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price

The Sigil said:
Speaking from my POV as an avid PDF consumer (though since I am also a PDF publisher, you may wish to take it with a grain of salt; I am trying as best I can not to bring publisher bias into the equation, but in the interest of full disclosure, I should tell you I write PDFs too - though I should also tell you that my policies as a PDF publisher are essentially governed by, "if I were buying this product, what would I want?").
--The Sigil

thanks. I think your response is much better than mine, but you are in the business. I just consume it.

I agree that the price should be reduced from the printed version, but for WotC at this stage of PDF deployment, I can't fault WotC for pricing it the same as their printed version. There are fears that the pdfs will be passed around and I'm sure some executives are worring if someone is going to find away around the DRM. It's a new biz model and they are the dominate player. An exec is probably asking 'why do we need to do this?'
 

sckeener said:
There are fears that the pdfs will be passed around and I'm sure some executives are worring if someone is going to find away around the DRM.
The DRM isn't particularly hard to break. I don't think the moderators would like me to explain how to do it, but it only requires a moderate amount of computer skill to do so.

The thing to remember about DRM is that at some point, when reading and/or printing the file, there has to be a decrypted version around. If you can intercept that somehow, you have a file without protection on it.
 

Staffan said:
The DRM isn't particularly hard to break. I don't think the moderators would like me to explain how to do it, but it only requires a moderate amount of computer skill to do so.

The thing to remember about DRM is that at some point, when reading and/or printing the file, there has to be a decrypted version around. If you can intercept that somehow, you have a file without protection on it.
That's not completely true, as of yet there's no method available that keeps the text copyable and readable. While it's true that it's possible to make a non-drm pdf from a drm pdf, there are two nasty side effects:
1.) The file becomes far bigger (expect the 6MB file to be around 90MB when converted).
2.) While you can select and copy the text in any pdf reader, but when you actually paste the text in any text editor you'll notice that the text is nothing more then a string of symbols. The conversion process changed the text characters in a bunch of symbols.

If anyone wants to dispute this, you can reach me at CERGORACH at THEHELIX dot NL

The reason why this book is $35 is obvious, someone even said it:
I would have strongly considered this an alternative to buying the print edition... except for the price. They're crazy to put it on at that level.
WotC absolutely does not want this to impact physical book sales, i agree with them, to lower the price would be hazardous to their health.

Would i buy it at $35? Possibly, $35 is around 30 euro, that would be around two hours of paid work for me. If the book contained material that i would want to use in my campaign (as a player), spells for in my spellbook for example, and the time it would take me to extract the text from a physical copy (through typing it in or OCRing it) would be two hours or greater then i would buy it at $35. I find typing over text or OCRing it extremely boring work, working two (theoretical) hours extra would be far more interesting and would pay for the electronic book. I will still buy the physical book.
 

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