Full Attack action & Armor Spikes

[Darklone]

Don't think you can attack with a spiked buckler and a weapon on one arm... Besides: Spiked bucklers? That belongs into houserules.

 

[Camarath]

What I gather from this is that attacks made with armor spikes replace regular attacks (be they off-hand or not).

When you use a shield, you usually wear it on your off-hand (although handedness pretty much disappeared in 3.5). If you use a weapon in your off-hand, you deny yourself the AC bonus granted by the shield you're wearing (unless you have to appropriate feat).

I do not believe that making an off-hand attack and using your off-hand to make attack are always the samething. I see no indication that when you attack with armor spikes you have to use the arm on which you have your shield to make that attack. And I see no reason for attacks that do not require the use of the arm on which you have your shield to deny you your shield bonus.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Since there are no core rules on attacking with other body parts than your arm/hands (unless you have other natural attacks, but monstrous humanoids are not part of the core characters that can be built), I don't know what to add.

You could of course say that you put armor spikes on your leg and use a sword and a shield, and on a full attack, you slash with your shield and kick with your leg, suffering the appropriate two-weapon penalties. This is simply not covered in the PHB. When you attack with 2 weapons, it's assumed that your primary weapon is in your primary hand and your second weapon is in your off-hand. Otherwise, why wouldn't anyone NOT fight this way?

AR

 

[Camarath]

Since there are no core rules on attacking with other body parts than your arm/hands (unless you have other natural attacks, but monstrous humanoids are not part of the core characters that can be built), I don't know what to add.

You could of course say that you put armor spikes on your leg and use a sword and a shield, and on a full attack, you slash with your shield and kick with your leg, suffering the appropriate two-weapon penalties. This is simply not covered in the PHB. When you attack with 2 weapons, it's assumed that your primary weapon is in your primary hand and your second weapon is in your off-hand. Otherwise, why wouldn't anyone NOT fight this way?

I don't believe that is true. IMO attacks with Armor Spikes and Unarmed Strikes can be used as off-hand attacks but do not require you to use your off-hand to make the attacks.

But on another track you only lose your shield bonus with a Light or Heavy Shield if "you use your shield as a weapon" which you are not doing when you attack with armor spikes or with a Buckler if "you use a weapon in your off hand" and I see no evidence that Armor Spikes are use in you off hand. Since there is nothing that states that any off-hand attack makes you lose your shield s bouns to AC and attacking with Armor Spikes does not fit either of the stated triggers for losing your shield bonus I see no reason why that would happen.

 

[Korak]

I
But on another track you only lose your shield bonus with a Light or Heavy Shield if "you use your shield as a weapon" which you are not doing when you attack with armor spikes or with a Buckler if "you use a weapon in your off hand" and I see no evidence that Armor Spikes are use in you off hand.

There is no such thing as a spiked buckler in 3.5. It is not a defined weapon. So, you can't attack with a buckler as anything other than an improvised weapon. As for armor spikes, I think their use in anything but a grapple is ridiculous at best. However, I will concede that, by RAW, I know of no reason they couldn't be used as "offhand" attacks provided that the character is not attacking with a weapon in the offhand. Nor do I know of a reason why that character couldn't retain an AC bonus from a shield held in the offhand.

 

[Artoomis]

. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)

It looks like you can keep your shield bonus.

You get only 1/2 strength damage (...Off-hand attacks receive only one-half the character’s Strength bonus...).

Other than that, it looks like a fine weapon indeed, in game terms, as it is always ready to go (always threatens) and cannot be disarmed.

Socially, well, they look kinda stupid and they get caught on everything while you walk around. Also, they cannot be sheathed, so if you go somewhere that requires you to check your weapons at the gate, I guess you'd have to take your armor off.

Not to mention they add 10 pounds of weight.

 

[Artoomis]

. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)

It looks like you can keep your shield bonus.

You get only 1/2 strength damage (...Off-hand attacks receive only one-half the character’s Strength bonus...).

Other than that, it looks like a fine weapon indeed, in game terms, as it is always ready to go (always threatens) and cannot be disarmed.

Socially, well, they look kinda stupid and they get caught on everything while you walk around. Also, they cannot be sheathed, so if you go somewhere that requires you to check your weapons at the gate, I guess you'd have to take your armor off.

Not to mention they add 10 pounds of weight.

 

[Tatsukun]

OK, I have been thinking about this (and running sample battles between NPC’s) and I have come up with some conclusions…

I now think of fighting with two weapons as being harder not because you are using both arms, but because you are using a lot more brainpower. It’s like not having enough RAM in your PC and trying to do two tasks at once. You can do either one alone without problem, but you get weaker results if you do both at once.

Back in D&D terms, you can attack with weapon one, or with weapon two without problems. But, if you attack with both you run out of RAM and take penalties for both weapons.

So, in this thinking, it doesn’t matter what the second weapon is (shield, dagger, armor spikes…).

Sooooooo, we can just say “Using a shield requires a small amount of RAM. If you are already running out of RAM by attacking with two different weapons, you just can’t use a shield well (no AC bonus).”

Thus, if you are attacking with two weapons (primary and; secondary, shield, armor spikes, whatever) you don’t’ get an AC bonus from your shield.

Ok, it works in my head now.
Thanks for bearing with my convoluted logic.

-Tatsu

 

[Darklone]

Tatsukun: I think many agree with your logic. And that's the reason why Improved Buckler Defense sounds silly

I just don't like to allow a twohanded weapon and some offhand attacks. Even with standard TWF penalties, there would be no real reason why any TWF guy would not fight that way.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

I don't believe that is true. IMO attacks with Armor Spikes and Unarmed Strikes can be used as off-hand attacks but do not require you to use your off-hand to make the attacks.

But on another track you only lose your shield bonus with a Light or Heavy Shield if "you use your shield as a weapon" which you are not doing when you attack with armor spikes or with a Buckler if "you use a weapon in your off hand" and I see no evidence that Armor Spikes are use in you off hand. Since there is nothing that states that any off-hand attack makes you lose your shield s bouns to AC and attacking with Armor Spikes does not fit either of the stated triggers for losing your shield bonus I see no reason why that would happen.

I understand what you're saying. The only problem I'm having is finding in the rules a quote that lets you make off-hand attacks with other parts of your body than your off-hand, unless we're heading in monstrous territory.

Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus.

That's the only quote I could find to back my position. An off-hand weapon is a weapon you use in your off-hand.

But you're right, If my armor spikes are on my leg, then there would be no logical reason for me to lose my shield bonus if I were to kick someone.

Oh well.

AR