Full attack and Improved Grapple

[Elder-Basilisk]

Because once he's got both of the rogues in a grapple, he no longer cares whether or not he's considered grappled by other people outside the grapple (there aren't any) so taking the -20 penalty in order to threaten no longer makes any tactical sense.

As soon as the bear begins a round with both rogues grappled, he can stop taking the penalty without fearing the consequences.

Since this is entirely a tactical question, I don't think there's any need for a citation.

Why can he grapple them both without the -20 if he holds on to them for one round? Please cite.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Good point. I read through the "pin your opponent" section, but not the "if you're pinned" section. The pinning section no longer mentions that they are not helpless and simply says that they are immobile (which includes helplessness) - so I got that one wrong.

Humorous Side Note: after reading the whole thing I noticed that if you have enough friends you can all grapple each other and move at half speed on each character's action - which with enough people would be faster (requires characters to be different sizes) than all running individually. Kind of like a Flinstones Mobile.

-Frank

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The barbarian's capabilities within the grapple will differ radically depending upon what the barbarian is using for weapons.

Taking a standard, by the book 18 strength half-orc barbarian 4 who wears a chain shirt and wields a greatsword, his damage goes down from 2d6+7 (+10 while raging) with the greatsword attack at +10 (+12 while raging) against AC 15 to 1d3+4 (+6 while raging) subdual which will only happen if he beats the bear's +16 grapple check with his +8 grapple check. Or, he can provoke an AoO by attacking with an unarmed strike at +4 (+6 while raging) against AC 15 for the same amount of subdual.

That's far more than a 66% decrease in the barbarian's offensive potential.

Taking a barbarian who thought a bit more about the possibility of being grappled, let's say that the 18 strength half-orc barbarian is wearing a silver spiked gauntlet, a locking cold iron spiked gauntlet, and masterwork cold iron armor spikes on his chain shirt. So he goes from 10.4 points of average damage per round (16.8 if he's raging and power attacking for two points) to 1d6+4 (+6 if raging) at +5 (+7 raging) to hit or 4.5 points of damage per round (5.7 if raging). That's a 40-60% reduction in the barbarian's offense right there.

However, when the bear pins the barbarian next round (quite likely to happen considering the bear's +16 grapple check against the barbarian's +8 or +10), the barbarian is finished dealing damage until he can get out of the grapple. That's a 100% reduction in offensive capability. The bear, however, will continue to deal claw damage with each successful grapple check to maintain the pin.

And if you change the barbarian to a fighter or speculate that he's used up his rage for the day he's even less likely to win the grapple and escape from the pin.

Grappling is the bear's schtick and it's pretty darn good at it. A dedicated PC ex monk barbarian grappler with improved grapple or a fighter/barbarian with combat reflexes and close quarters fighting might be able to give it a run for its money but, in a one on one situation or a situation where the bear's allies outnumber the PCs (what grappling is good for in general), it's very effective doing it.

The bear loses 2/3 of his offensive potential by grappling. The barbarian loses an average of 5 points of damage from the loss from the weapon, and only gets to use his strength bonus once instead of one and a half times.

Is that 2/3 of the Barbarian's offensive potential? If it isn't (and I don't believe it is), the bear is losing proportionately more by grappling than the barbarian is.

Which is the basic problem with this scenario: bears lose more by grappling than almost anything else can. Grappling is supposed to be their schtick - something is obviously wrong.

-Frank

 

[Kershek]

Because once he's got both of the rogues in a grapple, he no longer cares whether or not he's considered grappled by other people outside the grapple (there aren't any) so taking the -20 penalty in order to threaten no longer makes any tactical sense.

As soon as the bear begins a round with both rogues grappled, he can stop taking the penalty without fearing the consequences.

Since this is entirely a tactical question, I don't think there's any need for a citation.

I don't think you can really grapple two different people at the same time without taking -20 against one or both of them. I didn't see any rules that stated you could initiate a grapple on someone else when you were already grappling.

 

[FrankTrollman]

That's a 100% reduction in offensive capability. The bear, however, will continue to deal claw damage with each successful grapple check to maintain the pin.

That's debatable - the Bear only gets one grapple check per round, and pinning a character for one round is instead of doing damage. Further, attacking your opponent (like a claw attack) is not an allowed option for when you are pinning.

My reading is certainly that the bear can't inflict claw damage if he wants to maintain a pin. So while the bear can reduce both characters to no attacks every round - I fail to see what the point of this is.

-Frank

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well you can clearly grapple more than one person at the same time. That's what the entering a grapple rules are for.

And you can clearly attack one person and use improved grab on them while you're taking -20 to hold another person under your paw. Taking the -20 doesn't invalidate the improved grab on the second paw. Once that has happened (and, admittedly, it's not likely to with a brown bear against two fourth level rogues--a dire bear quite possibly--but probably not a brown bear succeeding four times (once to start a grapple with each rogue via improved grab and then again when the rogues attempt to escape on their turn) in a row on a -4 to +5 opposed roll is a bit of a stretch; it's more likely to succeed against halfling rogues).

I think once you've initiated the improved grab grapple with both characters, however, you'd count as grappling them both and if you stopped taking the -20, they'd both still have to succeed at the opposed grapple check to escape the grapple.

So, as I see it, in order to initate grapples with two foes at the same time, you need: A. at least two attacks. B. To take the -20 to your grapple check so that you still threaten the second guy after grappling the first. C. Either improved grab on the second or to use it to start an ordinary grapple (although this would be rather odd since, after starting the first grapple, you're in the same square as the first guy you grappled and when you initiate the second, you would move into the second guy's square--with improved grab that's not a problem though since you pull both grappled characters into your square).

I don't think you can really grapple two different people at the same time without taking -20 against one or both of them. I didn't see any rules that stated you could initiate a grapple on someone else when you were already grappling.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Except that, since the bear has improved grab on his claw, he inflicts claw damage with each succesful grapple check. So, each "maintain the pin" check the bear succeeds at will inflict claw damage.

Or do you interpret the "deal damage as with the weapon that initiated the grapple" improved grab part to replace the normal damage your opponent option rather than be in addition to it?

That's debatable - the Bear only gets one grapple check per round, and pinning a character for one round is instead of doing damage. Further, attacking your opponent (like a claw attack) is not an allowed option for when you are pinning.

My reading is certainly that the bear can't inflict claw damage if he wants to maintain a pin. So while the bear can reduce both characters to no attacks every round - I fail to see what the point of this is.

-Frank

 

[Kershek]

That's debatable - the Bear only gets one grapple check per round, and pinning a character for one round is instead of doing damage. Further, attacking your opponent (like a claw attack) is not an allowed option for when you are pinning.

My reading is certainly that the bear can't inflict claw damage if he wants to maintain a pin. So while the bear can reduce both characters to no attacks every round - I fail to see what the point of this is.

-Frank

Again, this doesn't appear to be what the text says:

If You’re Pinning an Opponent: You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check

That would mean you could use the "Damage Your Opponent" action while pinning someone.

 

[Kershek]

Well you can clearly grapple more than one person at the same time. That's what the entering a grapple rules are for.

I don't see an "entering a grapple" rule, but perhaps I'm missing something. I do see a "joining a grapple" rule, and it's this:

Joining a Grapple

If your target is already grappling someone else, you can use an attack to start a grapple, as above, except that the target doesn’t get an attack of opportunity against you, and your grab automatically succeeds. You still have to make a successful opposed grapple check to become part of the grapple.

Since it states that you're attacking someone who is already in a grapple, I don't think that pertains to your comment. Of course, you're welcome to rebut if you're seeing something I'm not....

 

[Henry]

Frank, what Piratecat told Ketjak and Reapersaurus the other day goes for ALL our posters. So comments about other posters' "cowardice" and "if you want your opinion I'll beat it out of you" are inappropriate.

Ladies and Gentlemen, we need to disagree with courtesy, or we need to bring the source to a screeching halt.

Thank you.

Henry